Viva El Birdos: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Around SBN: Last Jannero Pargo Post Bar-right-arrows



jaywalking

Pondering Jon Jay recently, I've read numerous reports that a tweener-type that doesn't really fit the profile of an everyday regular outfielder. Despite all this, he's in the Cardinal top 10 for nearly every prospect ranking system out there, as his batting numbers have been nothing short of spectacular. In his 3 seasons at the University of Miami Jay hit .378, and in his pro debut he hit .342 at low A. Some within the Cardinal organization talk him up as a future batting title winner, but outside of John Sickels almost all the other prognosticators see him as the team's future 4th outfielder. Hoping the Cardinals didn't pick a guy strictly for his college stats, I wanted some answers. Baseball America shed some light regarding the doubts, saying "Jay pumps his hands and uses a wide stance at the plate, quirky habits that scared off some scouts but haven't hurt him yet. He does have some length to his swing, which could create problems at higher levels." I like BA, but that answer left me unsatisfied.

While I am no scout, I went ahead and dug up Jay's video from draft day for a look. The described quirkiness was there, complete with fist pump and wide stance, but not really much as far as length to his swing as I could tell. I wanted to know how badly that would effect his game in reality. Enter Jeff Albert, hitting instructor and writer for Baseball Analyst's "Hitter's Eye" column, and his own website swingtraining.net. I emailed Jeff with the concerns I've heard about Jay, and he very graciously came up with a comparison of swings with a player I did not expect-Carlos Beltran. Of course that got me excited, Here's the video of the two swings:

Here is Jeff's comments regarding Jay:


My initial impression from Jay's video is that he has a pretty good swing to
accomplish what he does, which is using his speed to hit for high average. I wonder
if this swing developed from an effort to keep the ball out of the air in
effort to utilize his speed.

Realize that stacking up to Beltran is a tall task, but they are similar
height/weight/position and these swings matched up well.  Beltran's swing is
overall much more efficient.  First thing I notice is the set up where Jay is
more back on his rear leg, and Beltran is about 50-50.  This shows up as Jay
gets into his forward shift much earlier than Beltran.  Starting the move
earlier does not really mean that Jay won't get as long of a look at the
ball as Beltran, it just indicates that Beltran has a quicker load-unload
process with his swing.

As far as the height of Jay's hands, it does add length to his swing in
the sense that he does have to compensate being his hands are forward slightly earlier than Beltran, but I would not categorize Jay as the typical long swing. If
anything, Jay has to be quicker in order to make up for the extra distance, as
his hands start further up than Beltran's yet still make contact at
the same time.  Generally speaking, this would be a good thing, however Jay
is getting the hands to the ball using mostly his arms, and losing out on
the opportunity to transfer rotational momentum into contact.  The hands
swing serves him and plenty of others well in terms of making contact, but
as far as really maximizing contact and power, this will be a tough method
to use. The decision of how to address the problem (if that is what you
want to call it) becomes a matter of goals and preference.  Perhaps Jay and
the organization and perfectly happy with his progress, that's their
call.

The last place this difference shows up is in the frames right before and
after contact. Jay is pushing more into contact which costs bat speed right
before contact. Beltran turns the knob of the bat around much more quickly
and abruptly, which really gets the bat head around in a hurry and creates
that look of having quick wrists.

I like Jay in the sense that he has a good base to work with.  He apparently
has a good idea of what it takes to get the barrel to the ball quickly,
which is always a good starting point. Side-by-side to Beltran just shows
Jay has some room for improvement, which is a very good thing in my opinion.

So there you have it. Jay has a lot to work with and he's got a lot going for him already. He probably will not hit for much power, but Jeff indicates perhaps he could if he wanted to make the necessary adjustments. Right now, Jay's game is spraying liners to all fields and running like hell. Over his college and short pro career he's shown an advanced command of the strike zone by walking more then striking out. With this in mind and the results he's achieved so far, I respectfully disagree with the 4th outfielder label. Perhaps he is that future batting champ the Cardinal brass forecasted, who knows for sure? In my opinion, it's way too early to dismiss him as a role player and nothing more. Huge thank you to Jeff Albert for breaking this down for us.

0 recs | Comment 57 comments

Story-email Email | Print |

Comments

Display:

comment
i saw jon jay last year in the ncaa regionals, i go to ole miss and they played miami in the regionals, and i was very impressed with him as an overall player. i was no where close enough to disect his swing but his overall game was very solid. i think he can be a solid major leaguer maybe a #2 hitter- he will never hit a ton of home runs but will make contact

by truemun12 on Feb 18, 2007 1:37 AM EST   0 recs

where does he start the year at?
Palm Beach or Springfield?

by azruavatar on Feb 18, 2007 1:47 AM EST   0 recs

That would surprise me
There're so many more advanced players competing for the AAA outfield, I'd guess that both Jay and Rasmus will start the season in Palm Beach, with them getting promoted to Springfield once the weather warms up and some of those advanced OFs are traded from the organization, called up, or relegated to backup roles. It's more important for both to get regular playing time all season than get challenged early on. They should both finish at AA, at least.

Here's a probably incomplete list of players who have to find a home at AA and AAA:
Ryan Ludwick
John Rodriguez
Skip Schumaker
Cody Haerther
Rick Ankiel
Miguel Negron
Reid Gorecki
Amaury Marti
Nick Stavinoha
Shaun Boyd

That's five outfielders for both teams, plus occasional outfielders like Brian Esposito and Eli Marrero.

Two regular starters from that group are going to have to be pushed aside before Jay and Rasmus join the AA team, if they both have very good Spring Trainings, I could see a trade happening before the start of the season to open up room, but think it more likely that they'll spend a month and a half in the Florida state league.

by liam on Feb 18, 2007 5:35 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Excellent, excellent post, by the way
That Beltran-Jay synced video is quite illuminating.

I hope you'll pass my (our) appreciation along to Jeff Albert for helping you with this.

by liam on Feb 18, 2007 5:39 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Some of those guys might end up with the big club
But then, that would transfer some MLB players to that list

by Valatan on Feb 18, 2007 7:28 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Great post, Erik
I've been enamoured of Jay since the moment the Cardinals drafted him.  During the College World Series, I made sure to catch all the Miami games that I could, in order to see Jay and Chris Perez.  Personally, I like Jay an awful lot.  Looking at his production in college and his first pro season, he seems to be a second round steal.  

The perception of him as a fourth outfielder, at best, seems to underscore a larger trend that, to me at least, is a little disturbing.  The game of baseball in general, at least to my mind, has become so power-centric that the idea of an offense being able to produce in any way other than the home run is inconceivable.  Unfortunately, the scouting done today reflects that prejudice.  The major league clubs seem to be managed by thirty Earl Weavers.  I think Jay is the perfect player to illustrate this point.  The guy has the potential, at least, to be a top level MLB hitter, but the less than monstrous home run totals are thrown out as reason that he'll never make it.  What do you think would happen if Tony Gwynn were coming up today?  "Good bat control, a little speed, good instincts in the field.  He doesn't really have enough power to profile as a regular outfielder, unless he can stay in center, and his range isn't really sufficient."  I think this really illustrates how one dimensional the modern game is in danger of becoming.  

by the red baron on Feb 18, 2007 1:56 AM EST   0 recs

good point red baron
I think that shift has in many ways been a good thing, but it does cause to for someone with elite contact skills like Jay to be underrated. Your comp with Gwynn is interesting, here is Sickels' prospect retro of Gwynn http://www.minorleagueball.com/story/2007/1/12/211355/944

"Could this be foreseen in his minor league record? It was clear from an early point that he was a very skilled line drive hitter, and his early pro performance was outstanding. But did anyone actually project that Gwynn was a Hall of Fame talent while he was in the Pacific Coast League in 1982? Probably not."

So far that also could describe Jay. Am I saying he's the next Tony Gwynn? No, probably not. But there are similarities, being both are polished, lefty line drive hitting outfielders out of college who's  game is contact and speed. We all know Gwynn was obsessed with perfecting his swing, if Jay is that type of player I would expect very good things from him. If he's a superstitious type of hitter who is afraid to tinker like so many hitters then of course he'll be limited.  
 

by erik on Feb 18, 2007 10:12 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

or what would the scouts of today
be saying about Frankie Frisch, Rod Carew, Wade Boggs, Zach Wheat, etc? Again, not putting Jay in that same category but you're right red baron, unless you're a power guy you are overlooked...unless maybe you're a middle infielder.

by erik on Feb 18, 2007 10:19 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Yeah
if his upside is some combination of Carlos Beltran and Tony Gwynn, I'm not exactly complaining.  I always kind of have a 'wait and see' approach with minor leaguers, remembering all of the flameouts, and a certain prospect that was considered middling, and then suddenly became the best big league hitter for a long time.

by Valatan on Feb 18, 2007 1:10 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Overvaluing power
Someone who knows more sabrmetrics can jump in here and tell me if I have this wrong, but I think that in this post moneyball world everyone looks at ops--they know that obp and slg both predict run production.  But ops adds them together and thereby gives them equal weight.  I believe that obp is relatively more valuable to predicting run creation than is slg.  That's why hardball times has a measure called GPA (gross production average) that overweights obp relative to slg in the formula.

Perhaps the current (stat-inspired) trend to love ops (and the slg component) does not give due weight to obp component.  And perhaps a John Jay is undervalued as a result.

by ncgostl on Feb 18, 2007 12:07 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Yeah
One point of OBP (within the normal MLB range of course) is worth roughly two times that of one point of SLG in terms of run production.
Pujols > God

by joker24 on Feb 18, 2007 1:09 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

More like
1.2 - 1.3x a point of slugging.

by RedbirdRay on Feb 18, 2007 1:20 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Birnbaum, the guy who did that study, remeasured
Anywhere from 1.5-2.0 is the general consensus...
Pujols > God

by joker24 on Feb 18, 2007 11:54 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Tango touts 1.7
he explains it here

I get a little burnt out on the math (I get enough math in my engineering classes; don't need it invading my entire life) but he makes some intuitive sense.

by azruavatar on Feb 19, 2007 12:26 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Unorthodox....
would be my word for his swing, but it's one of those cases where it just works for him.  His hand hitch (fist-pump) is extreme, but he has produced with it, and he has some bat speed.  

One thing I noticed in that video is that his arm looks to be below average.  No carry on his throws.

by Baseball addict on Feb 18, 2007 2:33 AM EST   0 recs

I've seen him live a few times
And at the time the comp that immediately jumped into my mind was John Rodriguez at least offensively.  He's faster and a better defender, but at the plate they are a lot alike.  Quirky swings, good bat control, line drive hitters.  Biggest difference being defense which I think will lead to Jay being a regular vs a bench player.  Arm isn't too strong but it'll do.  Plus if those K/BB numbers are any indication, Jay has even better plate discipline.  It was a solid 2nd round pick though.  Seems guaranteed to at least be a J-Rod with the possibility of being a very good .380+ OBP type guy.  
Pujols > God

by joker24 on Feb 18, 2007 3:08 AM EST   0 recs

next Beltran?
so are the Cardinals going to leave his swing alone then? or are they going to try and make him become a power hitter? i've never seen the kid hit, but i say leave him alone for now. not every outfielder has to hit 40 bombs a year. do they?

off topic, but i just read this. and i'm still mad as hell about it. how anyone could boo IZZY is beyond me. the guy gave his heart&soul, and his physical health for the team and the fans, and that's how he got treated after blowing a few games? everyone who booed him should have to write him a letter, telling him how sorry they are, and that they are the uneducated type that only goes to BuschIII to be seen, and know nothing about baseball. and beg him not to leave after this season. what he has done for us can't be measured in dollars and cents. the Cardinals are a much better team with IZZY than without. he should be a Cardinal for life people. when healthy, IZZY is one of the top closers in baseball. how could you all turn on him so quickly? i'm so mad about this. this is not how Cardinals fans in the past treated a member of the family. when did everyone become just like those pathetic band-wagon fans out on the east coast?

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/7A2DF8FF47FA1ED7862572860014DF12 ?OpenDocument

The 2006 St.Louis Cardinals. WORLD CHAMPIONS OF THE WORLD. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Feb 18, 2007 3:55 AM EST   0 recs

I am a fan of Izzy
But have two opinions on this.
  1.  Izzy, you are a major league ballplayer.  Grow up.  Guys get boo'd everyday.  I don't appreciate it or condone it, and hate that it happens at Busch sometimes.  But, whining that your feelings are hurt over it months later?  Get over yourself.
  2.  I don't think he should be a Cardinal for life.   It's not that I dislike him in any way.  As I stated, I'm a fan.   The reason is...*No closer is worth the money Izzy commands*.  Closers are generated from smoke and mirrors.  They are failed staters, bullpen rank climbers and manufactured regularly by guys like Billy Beane.  There is absolutely no reason in the world to pay any guy 7-9 million/per.  Especially when you are an organization who claims to strive to pay less per marginal win.

by RedbirdRay on Feb 18, 2007 8:44 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

disagree
Ray, I'm with you on the general point of closers being overvalued, but I think you're way, way off base when you start calling Izzy a whiner. Did you read the article?  He played hurt for months, saying nothing as the fans booed him mercilessly and on multiple occasions blaming himself for his poor performance. Then when he has to shut it down, he selflessly spends the next several months working with the younger bullpen guys. For all we know, without Izzy's guidance, Wainwright et al. might have been  far less effective in the postseason and the team might not have won the World Series. And yet people like you are still criticizing him.

Give me a dedicated, classy, team-first guy like Izzy on my team any day.

by DCGreg on Feb 18, 2007 10:02 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Ummmm?
Ya, I read the article...

The part where he informed the team he wouldn't attend the winter warm-ups, how he's still bringing up getting boo'd and it's mid-Feb, how he's not sure he wants to retire with the team because of it....that's whining.

I've been an Izzy apologist all along...so, I don't appreciate the "people like you".   I think fans are mostly fair-weather and have a what have you done for me lately concept.

But, I find whining to the press about getting boo'd much less than "classy".

by RedbirdRay on Feb 18, 2007 10:13 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

neither
you nor I know whether he's "bringing it up."  My guess is that he was responding, honestly, to questions from a reporter.

As for winter warm-up and the possibility of retiring with the team, I'm not sure what you're expecting from a guy who apparently got booed at the parade. When fans are treating him that way after winning a World Series, why should he be showing blind loyalty to the team?

by DCGreg on Feb 18, 2007 10:37 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'm not saying he should give
blind loyalty.

I'm saying if he can't take the heat here...good luck making it somewhere else.   The fans here are much nicer than most cities.  I guess his best hope would be to go somewhere like Florida or KC where no one comes.

Also, if a guy can't take some boo-ing...I doubt he any longer has the  intestinal fortitude to close games.

by RedbirdRay on Feb 18, 2007 10:52 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Izzy
Great post!! gdm426.  We are becoming such a fickle and cruel society.  I can understand, in a moment of weak emotion and intellect, blurting out a boo.  But, to be so vitriolic and cruel to such a dedicated and successful warhorse sickens me.  Izzy is a true champion.  He gives his heart and soul every time he takes the mound.  He never backs down after a bad day, and he always gives praise to others.  These are the signs of a true GentleMAN.  Every day we all have opportunities to learn or regress.  Those of you who choose to harass someone so dedicated to the game should look in the mirror and critique your daily work.  Look at the professional body of Izzy's work.  When healthy he has been one of the elites of the game.  I saw and heard of many ugly scenes at the ballpark.  This great team became champions with the support and love of the true fans, overcoming the inane actions becoming all too prevalent.  I apologize to Izzy's family for all they had to endure.  You are highly respected and loved.

by Yadier on Feb 18, 2007 7:48 AM EST   0 recs

Izzy
Doesn't the last line in the PD article indicate that people were booing Izzy at the parade? That's horrible. Izzy, if you're a sufficiently "rabid newspaper, Internet and chat room reader" to reach this comment, know that I'm immensely grateful for all of the saves over the years, and for the mentorship that you provided Wainwright and the others. Your hand was evident in virtually all of those postseason ninth innings.

by Don Zero on Feb 18, 2007 10:10 AM EST   0 recs

Problem with Izzy
is that he knew he was hurt. He could've avoided the boos if he had shut himself down sooner.

by busch bird on Feb 18, 2007 11:50 AM EST   0 recs

No champion can be expected to do so.
It is nearly impossible for a guy to be realistic when he has been a champion like Izzy and just shut it down. Every night they think they will turn it around and get back on the horse.It isn't selfish, just the opposite, he thinks the team relies on him, and we did. If Wainer hadn't come through, we would have been lamenting Izzy's loss.
Anyone who booe'd Izzy at the parade should turn in their Cards jerseys and become Phillies fans, you don't deserve to be a fan of the greatest organization in all of sports.
Better yet, YOU SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!
A walk is a waste of three pitches-Bob Gibson

by orlando card on Feb 18, 2007 1:08 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Sorry, but this is wrong
When an athlete as good as Izzy is clearly suffering from so much pain that he can't maintain his mechanics, then it is his DUTY to report it to management.  Izzy didn't do that.

Instead, he continued to say he was "good to go" despite his failing mechanics, and the results spoke for themselves.

If he had told LaRussa or Duncan the extent of his injury, then they could have made an informed choice about whether to put him in.  Instead, he kept it to himself, management clearly had no clue why he was continually failing so badly, and the team lost a LOT of games unnecessarily as a result.

If he were truly a team player, he would have fessed up about the pain much sooner.  (Notice I said "sooner", not "immediately".)  As it was, he kept it to himself WAY too long, and the entire team suffered as a result.

I'll be glad to have him back, assuming he returns to his old form.  But you can't blame the fans for  their frustration when we all KNEW what we were in for yet again as he walked in from the bullpen.  He was likely to either blow yet another save by giving up a bomb or walking too many guys...or maybe barely hang on for the save after surrendering "only" 1 or 2 runs with men still on base when he finally got the 3rd out.

Izzy is a good pitcher, and I never booed him.  However, his performance last year was AWFUL and kept getting worse, and he burned through the Cardinals' fans significant patience long before he finally packed it in.  It's even quite possible that he might have tried to hold out even longer if he weren't getting booed at all.  (Can you imagine?)  Frankly, to blame us for getting booed strikes me as classic projection, probably because he KNOWS he should have confessed about the extent of his arthritis and the pain sooner.  He should have told Tony/Duncan about the pain earlier, and let THEM decide what's best for the team.  Clearly, he thought he was perfectly capable of making those decisions himself, and he was WRONG.  If management had known, they could have (wisely) DLed him sooner, he probably wouldn't have endured any boos at all, he could have had his surgery sooner, and he'd probably already be at 100% for this year's spring training, rather than forcing the entire team to play the Starter/Closer version of musical chairs if he's not ready come April.  But he made the decision to hide the condition from the team for months.  And, frankly, it was the wrong call.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Feb 18, 2007 4:19 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

i have to disagree
IZZY was booed on day one at Busch III when he closed the first game played there. everyone seams to forget that. the "fans" at home were on him from the start. that goes to show you that maybe, just maybe the reports are right about the type of fans that attended games there last year. mostly new fans who dont know a lot about baseball or the Cardinals. only go there to be seen, not there to watch the game. it was the "IN" thing to do in the STL last year. they got tickets from their work. or a wealthy friend. maybe it's because it's more expensive to go, or that tickets were simply bought by companies. but it seamed like most of the hard core fans, like those that post here, did not attend games last year. i think that had a lot to do with why IZZY was booed.

i think you are also forgetting that mid season, IZZY went like 30+ innings or appearances without a blown save. that or allowing a run. my point is, mid season he was very good. then his hip starting bothering him again, and he started blowing saves, and giving up runs.

it's a double edge sword when you discuse if IZZY should have shut it down sooner, or held out for as long as he did. on one hand, it worked out great for us because he was able to help guide the kids in the pen to help the Cardinals win the World Series. if you say he should have shut it down earlier, then we loose him for his mid season run when he did so well. and maybe the kids in the pen dont pick up the slack. and we dont even make the playoffs. he said on FSN Midwest this weekend too that he held on and played for as long as he could, just so the kinds in the pen could have some cusion to work with. he wanted the team to have a big lead in case they kids buckled under the pressure at first.

on one hand, you like it that a player is willing to play though pain. but, if the players play is so bad it starts to hurt him and the team, he probably should shut it down. its hard for althetes to come to that dicision on their own. i think they do need to be more honest with management about how they feel. but it's a fine line to walk. you dont want a guy like jd drew who takes weeks off at a time for minor injuries.

i think the fans need to reach out to IZZY this year and do what they can to apoloigize for the way they treated him last year. none of us knew just how hurt he was. even guys like me to defended him till the end knew there was something wrong with him. i knew he should stop playing and find out what was wrong. i think i even said that here. but i dont blame him at all for feeling like he does. i agree with him that he was treated badly. he was booed at home from the start of the season. but if he had told everyone his hip was bothering him, i do think he would have been booed less. but that goes aginst everything IZZY is about. he just shows up, does his job. and makes no excuses about how he plays. he takes the praise when he gets a save. and takes all the blame when he blows a save. he is just the type of player everyone wants on their team. and i hope he ends his career as a Cardinal. I belive he has earned it. the Cardinals are a much better team with a healthy, IZZY, than without him.

The 2006 St.Louis Cardinals. WORLD CHAMPIONS OF THE WORLD. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Feb 18, 2007 7:54 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Hmm.
Well, I was there on opening day (you know...I heard it was the cool thing to do and a good place to be seen), and I don't remember Izzy getting booed.

I do remember him blowing the game the night before in spectacular fashion, however, to the tune of 2 walks, a grand slam, and a single...against the Cubs no less.  He allowed his inherited runner to score, walked the bases loaded, promptly gave up the grand slam, and then gave up a single to the next batter.  He was finally pulled with 4 ER and 0 outs.  So perhaps all of us cool, there-to-be-seen trendy people in the stands were tipped off by the one or two "real" Cardinals fans in the stadium that afternoon, and they booed him for that.

(In case you can't tell, I don't buy your argument that the new Busch was filled with "non-fans" all year.)

If I recall correctly, he also wasn't very sharp in the home opener either, since after the inherited runner on 1st took 2nd, he gave up a run-scoring single and a walk before finally getting his lone out.  Anyway.

I admit that it's a dicey proposition to talk about possibly doing things differently during the regular season after having won the World Series.  However, we didn't clinch our playoff berth until the very last game.  If you subtract just ONE of his 10 blown saves ("tops" in the league, btw), suddenly we clinch without having to rely on the Braves, avoid the whole "guess the starter" hijinks for that last game against MIL, and forgo stressing about a possible make-up game against the Giants.

As a result, I stand by my assertion that his failure to properly report his condition to management was far from "heroic" or courageous.  Think about it...if he had waited a few more days before finally admitting his condition to Tony in the 2ND WEEK OF SEPTEMBER, we might have lost one more game and been out of the playoffs entirely.  In fact, here's what lboros said that day:

"the truth outs re izzy's hip; glad it didn't necessitate 2 or 3 more bad outings for that to happen. he effectively goes onto the DL now, and we may not see him again this year. i have to believe the hip has been a season-long irritant; it would help explain both the lack of movement on jason's cut fastball and the outrageous walk rate. bryan burwell's column makes a nice statement; next time we see isringhausen on the mound, whenever that is, i hope he'll be physically sound."

Izzy's a good closer, and I hope he can bounce back after his hip procedure and return to his prior form.  However, I also hope he's learned a lesson about when to properly report his condition to management, so that they can decide what's best for the team, not him.  He didn't do that in 2006, and it was a mistake.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Feb 18, 2007 10:19 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

agree to disagree
ok, you took my coments about it being "cool to be seen at Busch III" and just ran with it didnt you? i live in ohio so i dont get local news, or stories from friends about how fans act in Busch III. and i was not able to see a game in person, and i probably wont be able to this season as well. when i say there were lots of newer fans at Busch III, i am getting that from the articles on stltoday.com where almost all of the Cardinals writers did stories last season about the very different enviornment in Busch III compaired to Busch II of previous years. they all mentioned that there seamed to be a different type of fan there all year long. heck Joe Buck even said that it was quiet during the NCLS. so it's not just my point of view that there was a lot of fans there that had not been regular patrions of Busch II.

i have the first game on my dvr, and yes, there are loud boo's after IZZY gave up some runs in the 9th. but he did close out the game and get a save. the Cards were swept in the windy city the weekend before the home opener. the team as a whole said it was the weather's fault. really cold, windy, rain, etc. IZZY was not sharp, but neather was anyone else. not that i am using it as an excuse, but that's what they all said. IZZY did have a ruff start to the year. but he started getting some treatment for his hip, having liquid gell or something like that injected into his hip to help lube up his hip. then he was able to land properly, and he stopped having a hard time getting outs and blowing saves. once that treatment stopped working in late august, his mechanics went into the crapper and he started blowing saves again.

you got to know those injections to IZZY's hip were quite painful. but he kept doing it, and Tony and Dave knew he was getting them. IZZY kept doing it because at the time, he was still the best option to close out the 9th. IZZY took those painful injections all the time to help the team win. he didnt have to do that. he could have called it a year in april, and had the hip shaving surgery then. but he, and Dave&Tony thought those injections could help IZZY, and they did. so he did them for as long as they worked. then, he shut it down.

if taking a needle to your hip that goes right to the freakin bone to help your team win all season long is not the act of a "hero". please tell me what is. IZZY didnt have to do that. but he did to help the team win.

here is matt leache's story about this on the Cardinals main website. also a good read.

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070218&content_id=1806190&vkey=spt20 07news&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl

i am sure there were lots and lots of regular fans at Busch III who have rooted for the Cardinals all their lives. and taking one good example of IZZY blowing a save to make your point that everyone booed him does not make it right that he was booed. i agree with Tony on this one. I do think what IZZY did last season was better for the team in the long run. you do not. so there is nothing i can say to change your mind. and there is nothing you can say to change mine.

i am not saying it's wrong to boo. in fact, sometimes i think fans should boo. but dont boo a player if he is hurt, and trying his best, when his body is letting him down and not allowing him to preform like he did before he got hurt. and that is what you and a lot of fans at Busch III did last year to IZZY. listen, it may not have been public knowledge that IZZY was hurt, but anyone who watched IZZY pitch in the past knew something was wrong with him. i was just as upset that IZZY was blowing games as the rest of the Cardinals fans. but booing him didnt help anyone. in fact, it up set his wife,his friends and IZZY so much that now he probably does not want to pitch for the Cardinals after this season. and thats a real shame. IZZY's been a great closer for the Cardinals. and it's a shame if he leaves with bad feelings for the fans, or the Cardinals.

i cant say i agree with you that it was a mistake for IZZY to not tell the Cardinals just how hurt he was. my argument is what if he did once he started blowing saves again, and Adam or Loop failed at it, and we didnt make the playoffs because of that? i see your point of view. and i respect it. but after reading what IZZY and Dave and Tony have said today, i am on their side of the fence with this. IZZY pitched as long as he could to help get the team a big lead, so in case they needed it, the team would still make the playoffs in case the bullpen fell apart.

yes, IZZY probably, maybe should have told them just how hurt he was. the Cardinals did know it was bad because of the regular injections he was getting to his hip. but considering the out come of last season, i'm glad he didn't shut it down in april. but like IZZY said to Leach, if he is having another season like last season this season, he will shut it down for good. personally i hope he is healthy all season long, and does get to save the series clinching game in the  World Series in October.

The 2006 St.Louis Cardinals. WORLD CHAMPIONS OF THE WORLD. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Feb 19, 2007 1:32 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Fair enough
But I have one quibble with your following assertion:
"but dont boo a player if he is hurt, and trying his best, when his body is letting him down and not allowing him to preform like he did before he got hurt. and that is what you and a lot of fans at Busch III did last year to IZZY."
Correction: I most certainly did NOT boo him, as I already stated earlier.

And as for whether or not it's heroic to keep fighting through the pain even if the results are bad for the team, I think Izzy himself said it best:

"It's frustrating because even the outings when I don't give up runs it seems I really struggle to get my three outs. Just my body makes it hard to get three outs consistently."

"If my not pitching helps the team out, then that's what I need to do. If I go out there and stink every time, then, yeah, I shouldn't be pitching."

"I don't need to be going out there and wasting games for a team that has worked so hard. I'm not going to jeopardize all that we've worked for just to try and make a comeback. I have a lot of things to think about."

Looks like he just backed up pretty much everything I said.  Except for the fact that he came to that rather obvious conclusion on 08 Sep, whereas most of us that were paying attention to his pitching in 2006 came to that conclusion a little bit earlier.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Feb 19, 2007 3:41 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

gray area
my bad. i thought you said you boo'ed him. sorry for that mistake.

IZZY said a few statements that were contredictory. there were a couple more in both articles along the line of the ones you included. my opinion is that it falls in the gray area that is part of the pro athletes montra. "play hurt, but dont let your play hurt the team." for players like IZZY, Rolen, even Albert, Tony has said it's like pulling teeth on a rabid bear to get them to sit down for a few games. they are taught from t-ball to not take themselves out of the game, unless a arm or a leg is falling off. what we as fans cannot understand is at what point does a pro athlete come to the realization that his play is hurting his teams chances of winning? it's not our bodies. we dont feel how they feel. IZZY said himself he knew warming up in the pen he might be done on the 8th. so you and i read that and think, if he thought he was done, why even come into the game if he thinks his body is going to fail him? but as a pro, IZZY thinks, give it my best, do whatever i can to help the team win.

that is something you and i probably will never understand. how can we? i never played baseball past high school. i was never any good to play on little league teams or pony league teams. i was always the last one cut when try outs where over. but i always played on my high school teambecause i went to a small school, and they needed warm bodies to fill the roster. i never got hurt. i never have experienced what IZZY or any other pro player has. so i dont think i have the right to sit in front of the TV, or in the stands and judge players as harshly as some fans feel it's their right to. simply because they pay $8 dollers for a Bud Light.

it's a fine line IZZY was walking last year. his thinking is very old school. i cant fault him for playing as long as he did, because i appreciate his desire to help the Cardinals win. i love that he has a very good work ethic much like Rolen does. i love it that it hurt him more that he felt like he was letting the team down. rather than he felt he was hurting his "potential future earnings" MLB needs more players like IZZY and Rolen.

but i think it is very, VERY important that a player be completly honest with the coaches and medical staff about their injuries. IZZY was, to a point. and yes, i will agree with you that he should have told the team that his hip had gotten worse. and Dave probably should have said something to him if he noticed his mechanics getting worse and worse. The Cardinals do not have a good track record recently with players being too hurt to be productive. IZZY, Rolen and Mulder all played too long before they went to the coaches and told them they could not keep playing. i think that should never happen. teams should be aware that a player is so hurt that he cant preform up to his high standards. the Cardinals may very well be more responsiable for IZZY pitching as long as he did. because pro players are trained to play through any and all kinds of pain. it is the coaches and trainers job to know when to shut down a player. every pitching coach and manager gets the same response from a pitcher when they ask him on the mound if he is ok. "sure coach. i'm fine. i'll get the next guy out no problem. i'm ok." etc, etc.

like i said, this is a very gray area. we dont want a bucnh of jd drew's. but we also dont want guys out there who are so hurt, that by them continuing to play it's hurting the Cardinals chances of winning. hopefully this upcoming season everyone stays healthy, and players being to injured to play will not be an issue for the 07 Cardinals.

The 2006 St.Louis Cardinals. WORLD CHAMPIONS OF THE WORLD. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Feb 19, 2007 5:04 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Playing Through v Giving Up
I had made an analogy some time ago about how playing through pain is the norm & that it's hard for players to realize that they are hurting the team by sucking it up.

But I don't think that is really the case here. If Izzy was getting injections to improve his hip condition, the coaches obviously knew what was going on and should've been aware of the issues concerning the procedure. They should've taken all of Izzy's "I'm good to go, coach" affirmatives with a grain of salt, looking at how he was pitching and the results from it, and made the decision to shut him down.

It is possible that the coaching staff thought that Izzy, even in his condition, was a better option than the next guy available at Memphis or the FA market - and I would probably agree with that. And to think that Izzy, after several recent shaky outings, would revert to a capable pitcher is not beyond the realm of possibility - he had done it many times before.

The real problem is that LaRussa/Duncan believed so much in Isrighausen as the closer that they would rather place all their faith in his weakened form than take a chance on anyone else in the bullpen. Wagonmaker had pitched well but proven nothing, Looper had shown vicious splits versus lefties, and no one else had done anything to build any trust with the coaching staff. (Maybe it would've been different with a healthy Al Reyes all year; who knows?)

We know now that is was a good idea for LaRussa to place his trust in Wainwright. At the time, though, that would have required a leap of faith and changing what he believed in. That's hard to do.

Bethany: Having beliefs isn't good?
Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier.

Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time.

by Solanus on Feb 19, 2007 11:29 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

some would have said
that he quit on the team.  And, with many, it has little to do with the injury.  I've read many posts that say, essentially, that Izzy never was very good.  He walks too many, gives up too many hits, and just barely survives his ninth.

It's too high a standard.  I think, in many respects, similar to the Ray Lankford discussion the other day.  He's not a superstar but a very solid player.  But too many people have higher expectations of him.  He gets booed for not being Joe Nathan or Mariano Rivera or Billy Wagner.  He's just been very good for the Cards, never a star but he's done the job we've asked him to do w/ consistency.  He has been an above-average major league closer for several years now -- and this is a position where people generally don't last very long.  He's lasted longer than most and done it better than most, and for some, that's just not good enough.

by houstoncardinal on Feb 18, 2007 1:10 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'll take Izzy over Wagner
at least if Taguchi's coming up to bat.

by Don Zero on Feb 18, 2007 3:27 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Great stuff, erik!
I really am intrigued by Jay and agree that it's too early to cast him as a 4th OF type.  I agree also that it's probably b/c he, to this point, hasn't shown much power that he's seen in such low regard.  Still, do any of us not believe his upside is higher than Encarnacion's?  Or look around the league.  How many solid starting OF's are there that don't hit 25-30 HR?  If he can manage to get his bat through the zone at a good rate, there's no reason to mess w/ it IMO.  And if he can get on base frequently, play good defense, hit one out every now and then and steal some bags, he'll turn out to be a solid everyday OF.

by houstoncardinal on Feb 18, 2007 1:13 PM EST   0 recs

izzy
i have to say after reading that piece on him, who could blame him for feeling that way? i have to admit, that while i never booed him, i did doubt him a lot last year, when i found out how serious the surgery was, however, to me that shows the type of player he is, he gave everything he possibly could, and should never have been booed

just a quick comparison: was mcgwire ever booed in 2001 when he hit .189? if he was i dont remember it, we as the supposed best fans in baseball should be above booing a guy

i will say this, if a closer comes in and blows a save today, he may get a few boos as he is walking off, but to be booed while walking in from the bullpen? or at the parade? that isnt true cards fans

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Feb 18, 2007 2:47 PM EST   0 recs

very true
but 118 k's in 299 AB is awful, and the fans basically gave him a pass

looking at his numbers from that year did put what juan does into context:
mcgwire had a .316 OBP with his .187 BA
juan had a .317 OBP last year with a .278 BA

Pujols is the greatest Cardinal in my lifetime.

by bigcardsfan5 on Feb 18, 2007 10:30 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

belliard
gets a minor league deal from the Nats. Anyone got any insight as to how his stock could have fallen so much in the last half a season?  Sure, he didn't hit much for the Cards, but he played solid defense and his career numbers are much better than those of, say, Cristian Guzman, who will start at short for the Nats. (They're shifting Lopez from short to second.)

deal

by DCGreg on Feb 18, 2007 3:49 PM EST   0 recs

Good for Belly...
But I don't think it's really "why did his stock suddenly fall?" so much as the fact that he had an OPS+ of 88 last year (and an ugly OPS+ of 77 after the Cards picked him up).

Despite a few memorable plays, he was a league average infielder with a below average bat.

There's not much of a market for overweight/out of shape middle infielders with average fielding and below average offense, I'm afraid.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

by Mr Clean on Feb 18, 2007 4:34 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

but
that's not so bad for a 2B.  Adam Kennedy, to take the first example that comes to me, had an OPS+ of 90 last year and he gets a 3-year, $10 mln deal that  people describe as being below the market rate.

by DCGreg on Feb 19, 2007 8:32 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I never got it with Belly
he's a good, consistent veteran player in my opinion....can't believe nobody signed him.
It happened on a Sunday afternoon, August 22, 1982.

by Glenn Brummer stole home on Feb 18, 2007 4:54 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

It's clear that the
Cardinal team philosophy isn't what it once was, w.r.t. high-avg., low power players, but I would think the Birds DO appreciate the skills Jay brings to the field.  Look at the other no-power players that TLR just loves for other reasons -- Yadi, Miles, Eck, Gooch, etc.  If he's really that kind of a hitter I think the org will value him properly.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Feb 18, 2007 4:54 PM EST   0 recs

Jay might be a good hitter, but...
You'll notice that the guys you named are infielders or fourth outfielders.  So, while Tony might value those guys, that doesn't mean he'd start Jay over someone who hits for more power but has less general hitting savvy, like Preston Wilson, for example.

I'm taking a wait-and-see approach with Jay, as he was just drafted last season.  He'll have plenty of time to show us what he's capable of before we need him.  It'll be interesting to see if he can crack the team even if he's basically a line drive high OBP guy.  Maybe he can start the return of the Runnin Redbirds...

by Phyrkrakr on Feb 18, 2007 5:17 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I really just want Jay to reach the majors
so that I can nickname him 'The Justice,' and every time that he hits a home run, I can say things like:

"Jay has issued a landmark decision in the case of Royals v. Cardinals",

or ball v. fence"

by Valatan on Feb 18, 2007 8:01 PM EST   0 recs

that's a lot better than
"Jay just published another Federalist Paper!"  I like it!

by houstoncardinal on Feb 18, 2007 8:43 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Heh.
I'm sure there's a Nats joke in there somewhere =p
Bench Juan Encarnacion!

by STLCardinalsFan on Feb 19, 2007 1:38 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Mr. Clean
I'm not buying your claim that Isringhausen was booed at the home opener because fans were upset that he had stunk in Chicago over the weekend. If that was the case:

-Why was the starting lineup not booed since they mustered one run against Greg Maddux on a day the wind was blowing out? And they produced two unearned runs against Carlos Zambrano the next day. And they did squat outside of two homers from Rolen and Pujols against Sean Marshall.

-Shouldn't Sidney Ponson have been booed since he was mediocre in the Sunday night game?

Fans are fickle, no doubt. But booing Isringhausen had nothing to do with his performance against the Cubs and everything to do with pent-up frustration for him because they see him as being a bad closer. It's been well-documented that he is in fact a very good closer.

by ryanisforever on Feb 19, 2007 12:40 AM EST   0 recs

9th inning of home opener
just watched the 9th again from my dvr. here's what happend. Mulder started off the 9th, gave up a bloop hit to Jenkins. Tony pulls Mark. Tony gets booed walking out. Mark gets a big standing O leaving. Loop gets a double play from carlos lee. bill hall then doubles to left. weeks singles to center, hall scores. Loop is pulled for IZZY. Loop is booed off the field. IZZY gives up a single to right to price fielder. the crowd boo's after fielder's single. Duncan comes out to talk to IZZY because lefty corie koskie is hitting, and he is 3-5 aginst IZZY with a HR. IZZY goes to 3-1, the crowd boo's. Joe Buck remarks that the crowd is getting restless. IZZY walks koskie, the crowd "groans" that koskie didnt chance a high pith, more than booing IZZY. IZZY gets gross to weakly ground out to Pujols who tags gross sliding into first. the crowd rejoices.

so, that's 3 boo's from the crowd in the 9th. one each for Tony, Loop & IZZY. and one "groan" after a single. seams to me the home crowd had little patience for any miss haps in the 9th inning from the start of the season. if i am wrong, please some one out there let me know.

dont forget, we had an awesome year. despite all the crap of the regular season, we were the only team left standing at the end of October. and that's what it's all about everyone. we were the Champions of 2006.

The 2006 St.Louis Cardinals. WORLD CHAMPIONS OF THE WORLD. And That's A Winner!

by gdm426 on Feb 19, 2007 2:09 AM EST   0 recs

Thanks for the reality check, gdm426
Nothing like hard facts elevate a discussion.

I admit being hard in Izzy from afar last season. Living out of the area (by 1,000 miles or so), I wasn't able to attend games and therefore didn't boo him. But I wasn't kind when talking about his poor performances. Of course, that was all before I knew he was injured.

Today, given the