Why the Cardinals can't trade Colby Rasmus
As Larry mentioned, I'll be writing on Fridays (capital letters and all). I'm not here to make this my weekly talk about the minors and I'm still going to be writing about them at Future Redbirds but VeB offers me the chance to broaden my discussion. . .which I'll do next week. This week, I want to focus on one specific minor leaguer and their importance to the Cardinals.
There's a sentiment out there that if the Cardinals could acquire some marquee young player already established in the major leagues (say Miguel Cabrera) that they should do so, whatever the cost. Most knowledgeable baseball fans realize that the team needs to get younger (and better) in a hurry. And while it's not impossible to land a young marquee player, here are three reasons why the Cardinals should sit tight:
- $$$
- The farm system can't support that kind of trade
- Trading Rasmus is losing a (potential) all-star player on the right end of the defensive spectrum
The second point is that our farm system is pretty bad. Outside of Colby Rasmus there is no truly elite prospect. There are a couple that could turn out to be elite prospects but none that I'd want to wager money on yet. To get the kind of player that I often hear discussed (Cabrera, Erik Bedard, Tim Lincecum) would require not only Colby Rasmus but a collection of our second tier prospects as well. That is not something our system can support. Trading of two of our top 5 prospects would probably put the Cardinals in the bottom 5-10 farm systems in the league. It's not that we don't have interesting prospects or prospects that won't ever contribute in the majors but that so many of our prospects have large question marks attached to them.
Is it possible that our top prospect is underrated within the Cardinal community? I think so. This idea that he's a prospect and hence a massive question mark is misleading. Rasmus plays an average defensive centerfield at worst. He was named the best defensive CF in the Texas League this year by Baseball America and I'm firmly of the opinion that he can be worth about 5-10 runs a year with his glove. He's shown good discretion and speed on the basepaths with a stolen base success rate that makes his speed an actual asset rather than the mirage of one. He's well regarded by scouts and statheads alike -- and I'm certainly extremely high on him, for whatever that's worth. He's hit for average, power and done everything else with the bat you could ask for. One American League scout said that "Of all the high school outfielders from the 2005 draft, it seems like he's the guy that gets the least amount of attention [...] and [he] might be better than them all when it's all said and done." (That 2005 draft included notable high school outfielders Cameron Maybin, Andrew McCutchen and Jay Bruce.)
Some will argue that "prospects falter all the time -- he could wind up turning into nothing". Two responses to that: a) he's a blue chip prospect that has an extremely good chance of making the majors and b) if you can't count on your top prospect for two years running in your farm system to pan out then your name might be Ned Colletti (or Brian Sabean). Colby may turn into a pumpkin next year but you're flat out wrong if you think that's the most likely scenario. By the same token any superstar could get seriously injured and be a shell of them former selves (cough Scott Rolen cough). You can't be so gun-shy by anecdotal cases of premier prospects failing that you trade off your best prospect from a weak farm system.
Let's briefly look at some numbers that Colby has put up in the minors. His BB/PA% in Palm Beach in 2006 and last year was above 12%. I've commented a few times about Jarrett Hoffpauir and how his walk rate is what differentiates him from other contact hitters -- well, Rasmus has excellent walk rates as well. He struck out in just shy of 20% of his plate appearances this past year and while that's a number that I suspect will be high throughout his career, as a power hitter, it certainly doesn't seem to be a hindrance thus far. Rick Ankiel posted a .301 isolated power (SLG - AVG) in Memphis and got rave reviews for his power; Colby posted a .276 mark in Springfield (which is, admittedly, more of a hitter's park) as he displays that power we'd expect to see develop between ages 20-25 for a lot of prospects. It's worth noting that his numbers aren't really luck driven either as his BABIP rates have been consistent with the number of line drives and level of power he displays.
For those of you more interested in traditional rate stats, this past year at Springfield, Colby put up a .274/.380/.550 in 2007. That's good for a .930 OPS. Pujols and Duncan appear to be the only players capable of putting up +900 OPS marks in the majors. Colby may not be that good of an offensive player once he reaches the majors but I can count on one hand the number of prospects who put up .900 OPS marks in the Cardinal's system this past year. If we look at some minor league equivalencies (MLEs explained here) from Baseball Prospectus, Rasmus's Springfield line is roughly the equivalent of a .240/.331/.474 major league line. Meaning RIGHT NOW, he's capable -- not that he will; just capable -- of putting up around a .275 EqA (.260 is average). Add in his plus defense at a premium position and his speed and it's entirely possible that he could be an above average player right now in the majors. Given how young he is, that's remarkable. If you apply aging curves to those Springfield numbers, BP projects that Rasmus could peak at .273/.380/.538 given his skillset. Now you may doubt the validity of MLEs, and I'm not arguing against a dose of skepticism there, but even if Rasmus is in the general vicinity of those numbers he's an everyday player if not an All-Star.
This kid is for real and it would behoove the Cardinals to hold on to him -- regardless of the bounty that they could get for him now.
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One minor quibble
Trading of two of our top 5 prospects would probably put the Cardinals in the bottom 5-10 farm systems in the league.
Who gives a shit? I mean, vulgarity aside, if it got us Miguel Cabrera or Tim Lincecum because we gave up Colby Rasmus and Bryan Anderson...I particularly wouldn't care what Baseball America had to say about the farm system. We improved the franchise.
They don't hand out a trophy for having the best prospects.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 9, 2007 8:19 AM EST 0 recs
ok
a.) they aren't gonna trade lincecum.
b.) if you gave up cabrera, you are giving up 6 seasons of cheap, above average play for a couple of seasons of cabrera, a guy who can hit like pujols mini, but is probably headed to the same defensive position with all the weight he's put on. 2 years from now, he's a free agent. There's a very good chance Colby gives us = value of Cabrera for a lot less scratch and a lot more years.
i see your point, who cares what is said about our farm system if you're winning now? But selling off the future for band aids isn't working, as AZ noted, even rich teams like the yankees aren't wanting to go that route anymore. Traded young players for older, more established talent isn't bad, but it can get extremely expensive in a hurry and I don't think it's the best way to win.
by erik on
Nov 9, 2007 8:37 AM EST
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rich teams like the Yankees aren't wanting to
I guarantee that for all there blustering, if the Yankees were offered Miguel Cabrera for Melky, Hughes and Kennedy...they'd take it in a heartbeat.
The point, anyways, wasn't just Miguel Cabrera or Tim Lincecum but rather trading Rasmus for a young superstar player. As far as cost control, players can sometimes be stupid. Look at Josh Beckett. Instead of being a FA this off-season, he signed a very dumb contract where he is going to make below market value through 2010.
I'm not talking about trading Colby Rasmus for some 28 year old about to hit FA. But if offered a young superstar who can have his arbitration years bought out, why would you pass up on that? Just to say we have one of the better farm systems?
If Colby Rasmus is the only piece of real value we have in the farm system, then trading Colby wouldn't be our biggest problem. It is that we have such a thin farm system.
by Hardcore Legend on
Nov 9, 2007 9:30 AM EST
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I agree that
by eglasier on
Nov 9, 2007 9:44 AM EST
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They'd still have
You are probably right, though. Both Kennedy and Hughes is probably too rich.
by Hardcore Legend on
Nov 9, 2007 9:47 AM EST
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Giving
Lincecum (even though they're not trading him!), on the other hand, there are few people in the organization that I wouldn't give up for that kid. He's 25, has a solid delivery, and throws the ever-lovin' crap out of the ball. He's a guy you can build a rotation around for years to come.
Bottom line: Rasmus for a youngish position player? No. Rasmus for a young stud pitcher? Yes, in a heartbeat. In my opinion at least.
by Jhusk on
Nov 9, 2007 11:14 AM EST
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n/t
That was my exact thought not 30 seconds before I saw your comment. Someone needs to grab him by the scruff of the neck and get in his face about not only his work ethic, but his weight.
by cardsrul on
Nov 9, 2007 1:44 PM EST
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Another guy whose career is
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Nov 9, 2007 2:27 PM EST
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Especially if
by cardsrul on
Nov 9, 2007 2:29 PM EST
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Lincecum
by holden on
Nov 9, 2007 5:39 PM EST
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the yankees
by erik on
Nov 9, 2007 9:45 AM EST
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Market correction
by BigJawnMize on
Nov 9, 2007 9:48 AM EST
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I honestly believe that
Sports is very much about seeing what others who win do and trying to do that.
As far as the Red Sox youth movement, they spent $150 M last year, spent another $50 M just to talk to a guy. If Jacoby Ellsbury hits .215 next season, they'll got trade for Juan Pierre/Jim Edmonds/Older high priced guy to fill in his position because they can afford it.
It's like doing the high-wire act wearing a harness. Sure, they look great doing it but they are in no real jeopardy of falling and breaking their neck. Smaller market teams, who go young, have to face the make or break possibility of a young guy flaming out and being stuck without a reliable backup.
by Hardcore Legend on
Nov 9, 2007 9:55 AM EST
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Payroll
by UNCDubya on
Nov 9, 2007 10:25 AM EST
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Age of the team
by UNCDubya on
Nov 9, 2007 8:46 AM EST
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Win Now
So if you are playing in the Yanks and Red Sox division maybe the "we can't trade Colby" logic works. But in our division, we just have to improve incrementally to be there again. Marquis moving from Cards to Cubs actually had a reasonable impact. Cabrera would have a huge impact.
Context is important. Having a good minor league development process is a good long term strategy, but right now, we just need to do enough to get into the playoffs.
by The Duke on
Nov 9, 2007 1:03 PM EST
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Thanks Azru, now I'll
Cameron
Edmonds
Sizemore
Steve Finley
Damon
Jerry Mumphrey
Kerry Robinson
Andruw Jones
etc.
by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 9, 2007 8:38 AM EST 0 recs
Which one is the most
by Hardcore Legend on
Nov 9, 2007 9:30 AM EST
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for a free swinger, he knows how to draw walks
by erik on
Nov 9, 2007 9:46 AM EST
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True
But I do agree with the Sizemore comparision, although I don't know if he has Grady's speed.
by Hardcore Legend on
Nov 9, 2007 9:50 AM EST
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i agree
by erik on
Nov 9, 2007 10:32 AM EST
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Please tell me he doesn't
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Nov 9, 2007 9:46 AM EST
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I say Edmonds...
by BigJawnMize on
Nov 9, 2007 11:49 AM EST
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Wow, that would be a hell of a career.
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Nov 9, 2007 2:32 PM EST
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You're setting him up to fail, then
by Valatan on
Nov 9, 2007 11:49 PM EST
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Good!
by ridgesee on
Nov 9, 2007 2:49 PM EST
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What about Granderson?
I personally think of Pence.
by silent_bob on
Nov 9, 2007 9:32 AM EST
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if you look at pence's milb #'s
by erik on
Nov 9, 2007 9:49 AM EST
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not arguing but
They've moved up at a similar pace from low A to high A and they performed similarly in AA.
I don't see any reason why Colby won't put up monster numbers in AAA this, do you?
by silent_bob on
Nov 9, 2007 11:00 AM EST
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JM
by flynn on
Nov 9, 2007 10:30 AM EST
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You're welcome. I try
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Nov 9, 2007 11:00 AM EST
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that is, to the commendation
TSF
by TedSimmonsFan on
Nov 9, 2007 12:00 PM EST
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Well, when we're talking about
(Though I'll always treasure watching Simba, Mex, Gibby, Brock and the young Templeton.)
And really, I'd like to forget the whole decade. (I've forgotten about half of the 1980s, for pharmacological reasons.)
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Nov 9, 2007 2:36 PM EST
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sizemore is the comparison
by azruavatar on
Nov 9, 2007 12:14 PM EST
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I say Finley
He'll have a couple of 10 HR/40 SB seasons early, with a few prime seasons of 30/30 before settling into a 15-20/10-15 pattern.
by 26thMan on
Nov 9, 2007 7:53 PM EST
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Just wanted to say...
Amen.
by RedbirdRay on Nov 9, 2007 8:43 AM EST 0 recs
I agree
- Payroll- unless you are the Yankees or Red Sox resources are limited and unless you can balance young (cheap players) with the vets you end up with a team made up of a few really expensive vets and then a bunch of AAAA players as filler (current cardinals are an example)
- Trades- If you have depth in your farm system you have the ability to pull off a trade that my net you the vet that will put you over the hump without messing with your ML roster.
by emath on Nov 9, 2007 9:03 AM EST 0 recs
That was good emath
by ridgesee on
Nov 9, 2007 10:19 AM EST
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Rebuilding
by emath on
Nov 9, 2007 12:08 PM EST
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In Italy we say...
... that "The hasty cat gave birth to blind kittens"
Patience, smatness, some risk-taking and more patience, this is what is needed to restock the farm, and this is what the cards have to do to do.
GO CARDS!!!
by SuperSeve on
Nov 10, 2007 5:16 AM EST
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....Congrats! Nice post...
After watching Rasmus take at least 170 ABs over 07, the one single player I heard people in the seats consistently compare him too, was Van Slyke with slightly more power and evolving speed (lot to learn).
I think Sizemore is a better projection/fit at this point. Keep Rasmus!
The kid was sick and just plain worn out at mid-season and still dealt with the "phenom" pressure in spite of it.
by cardschinmusic on
Nov 10, 2007 9:18 AM EST
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Thread Jack: Collusion
If they are...good for them.
by Hardcore Legend on Nov 9, 2007 9:32 AM EST 0 recs
I agree
by Alxfritz on
Nov 9, 2007 9:33 AM EST
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i also agree
by erik on
Nov 9, 2007 9:40 AM EST
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I'm not all about big business
Then again, I thought the owners would punish JD Drew from walking away from big money and instead they gave him a flippin raise.
by Hardcore Legend on
Nov 9, 2007 9:44 AM EST
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I will always believe
Epstein: "Hey Scotty, I've got 5/55 available, do you have any outfielders who are worth it?"
Boras: "Let me get back to you on that".
...)
by SleepyCA on
Nov 9, 2007 12:55 PM EST
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Collective agreement?
by MdRedbirdFreak on
Nov 9, 2007 9:49 AM EST
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Besides
Just because he doesn't get what he wants doesn't make it collusion.
by Cardinal70 on
Nov 9, 2007 10:00 AM EST
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umm..
by Birds on the Matt on
Nov 9, 2007 10:05 AM EST
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Seriously.
by lordsummer on
Nov 9, 2007 10:37 AM EST
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I have never understood this
by ridgesee on
Nov 9, 2007 10:36 AM EST
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You obviously
Secondly, collusion among owners is a significant issue for the sport. Everyone loves Bart Giamatti, but he and Fay Vincent were involved in a behind the scenes plot with ownership to control the price of free agent players instead of letting the market set their value. To say that collusion isn't a problem is shortsighted and incorrect. If the owners were able to completely control how much other teams offered for free agents they would literally control the market and the cost of players, they could then designate who got what players and how. This is an unhealthy system and would not be good for the sport, only for the owners who would line their pockets with the money saved in payroll.
The A-Rod situation is a special one: only a few clubs can afford to pay what Boras insists that he is worth, so there will be no bidding war for him, and A-Rod may end up on the short end of the stick because of this. I do believe that Boras may have finally outthought himself. His client gave up a guaranteed $72 million to go fishing in a free agent market in which few teams can afford to pay his $350 million pricetag. Boras took one of the four teams that could afford to pay this completely out of the running already; that team also happened to be the only team that could drive up the size of the contract against other teams. The only teams that can truly afford that type of money are:
NY Mets: They already have a stud 3B and SS who are locked up for multiple years and are younger than Alex -- why pay that kind of money when you could lock up Wright and Reyes BOTH for about 8 years for the same amount?
LA Angels: They say they aren't interested, but they have all the other pieces in place to make a run, tons of money, and a gaping hole at 3B right now. Signing A-Rod would also give them the opportunity to trade players like Brandon Wood for help in other areas, like SP.
Detroit Tigers: This is where I see him ending up. The Tigers have signed free agents above bar for the past couple of seasons, have a couple of Boras clients on the roster, and have the type of team that should contend the next 3 or 4 seasons with their young pitchers. ARod would also probably get to move back to SS if he signs here, which may be a factor.
Regardless, if his deal is 10 years at $30 to $35 million a season, A-Rod better be attune to the fact that he will:
- Be literally untradeable
- Probably finishing his career with some really craptastic teams
- May never win a World Series championship, especially if baseball economics stay the way that they are.
by fourstick on
Nov 9, 2007 12:33 PM EST
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Don't forget the Rangers' Contribution
He'll probably prove me wrong in the end, but at this point I'm scratching my head.
by Secret Weapon on
Nov 9, 2007 1:13 PM EST
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Re: Rangers' contribution
That said, I don't know if or when those deferred payments have/will start... potentially, years from now, after he's been long gone from the Rangers, they'll still be paying him. :-)
by SmashedAtoms on
Nov 9, 2007 1:59 PM EST
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Fourstick
by ridgesee on
Nov 9, 2007 3:44 PM EST
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PS and to further answer
by ridgesee on
Nov 9, 2007 6:57 PM EST
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I brought up A-Rod
I hate to correct you, but Curt Flood himself did not end the reserve clause. He threw himself to the mercy of public opinion, which allowed Miller to negotiate changes in the CBA in the late 1970's . Andy Messersmith and Dave McNally were the players directly responsible for the repealing of the reserve clause when they won their court case to become free agents.
I'm sorry, but the argument that the players "made the same money as the fans watching them" is misconstrued. Roberto Clemente always made more money than someone working for a steel mill in Pittsburgh, but Clemente's career would have been no longer than 15-18 years had it not been tragically cut short. The average steelworker at the time could expect a 20-30 year career and have a nice fat pension at retirement, all thanks to the hard work of the Steelworkers Union. Baseball players took that union attitude and brought it into baseball not to get paid more, but to allow them the same benefits and pension agreements that other working class people had at the time.
by fourstick on
Nov 11, 2007 3:23 PM EST
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You know,
by ridgesee on
Nov 11, 2007 4:10 PM EST
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PS The next poster has got it right
by ridgesee on
Nov 11, 2007 4:14 PM EST
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I checked and
by ridgesee on
Nov 11, 2007 5:05 PM EST
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Lord, give me patience...
Okay, I'm kidding (mostly)... but rebuilding the farm system is going to take at least a few more years. As far as 2008 is concerned, I'm of the opinion that trading for a legit #2 starter will require the Cardinals giving up a player (or players) already on their MLB roster!
Rasmus is obviously the Birds' best position prospect... they'd be foolish to trade him. "Second-tier" minor leaguers aren't going to get the "return" the Cards need.
My hunch is they'll re-sign Eckstein to a one-or-two-year deal, and try to trade for a pitcher. That deal might even cost the Cards Chris Duncan; but if the "return" is good enough, so be it. Rolen's not going anywhere unless he wants out; and there's some serious doubt in my mind that the Cards could get credible value in return. (There's also no young guy ready to play 3B right now; another argument for keeping Rolen.)
But without some improvement in the rotation, none of the other moves the Birds make will make much difference in the club's overall fortunes.


