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Why the Cardinals can't trade Colby Rasmus

As Larry mentioned, I'll be writing on Fridays (capital letters and all).  I'm not here to make this my weekly talk about the minors and I'm still going to be writing about them at Future Redbirds but VeB offers me the chance to broaden my discussion. . .which I'll do next week.  This week, I want to focus on one specific minor leaguer and their importance to the Cardinals.

There's a sentiment out there that if the Cardinals could acquire some marquee young player already established in the major leagues (say Miguel Cabrera) that they should do so, whatever the cost. Most knowledgeable baseball fans realize that the team needs to get younger (and better) in a hurry. And while it's not impossible to land a young marquee player, here are three reasons why the Cardinals should sit tight:

  1. $$$
  2. The farm system can't support that kind of trade
  3. Trading Rasmus is losing a (potential) all-star player on the right end of the defensive spectrum
The Cardinals need to save money by paying some players league minimum. The payroll ceiling isn't the problem and people who complain about DeWitt being cheap don't realize the changing structure of ball clubs. The Yankees aren't scooping up massive contracts anymore just because someone wants to dump them; the Red Sox are thriving on their prospects combined with free agents. Those two teams illustrate quite well that just dumping money into the system isn't the way things operate in 21st century baseball as they go through their own transition to merge prospects with veterans. It's the confluence of both talented (and even bit part) prospects coming up to make league minimum for a few years and a few core veteran players that allows a club to be successful over a sustained period of time. More salary is the simple answer but it isn't the right one and it's not a model that the Cardinals can follow given their market. We're watching right now what happens when our club is hamstrung by long term deals to multiple aging players without a decent farm system; it's not something I want to be in the habit of watching.

The second point is that our farm system is pretty bad. Outside of Colby Rasmus there is no truly elite prospect. There are a couple that could turn out to be elite prospects but none that I'd want to wager money on yet. To get the kind of player that I often hear discussed (Cabrera, Erik Bedard, Tim Lincecum) would require not only Colby Rasmus but a collection of our second tier prospects as well. That is not something our system can support. Trading of two of our top 5 prospects would probably put the Cardinals in the bottom 5-10 farm systems in the league. It's not that we don't have interesting prospects or prospects that won't ever contribute in the majors but that so many of our prospects have large question marks attached to them.

Is it possible that our top prospect is underrated within the Cardinal community? I think so. This idea that he's a prospect and hence a massive question mark is misleading. Rasmus plays an average defensive centerfield at worst. He was named the best defensive CF in the Texas League this year by Baseball America and I'm firmly of the opinion that he can be worth about 5-10 runs a year with his glove. He's shown good discretion and speed on the basepaths with a stolen base success rate that makes his speed an actual asset rather than the mirage of one. He's well regarded by scouts and statheads alike -- and I'm certainly extremely high on him, for whatever that's worth. He's hit for average, power and done everything else with the bat you could ask for. One American League scout said that "Of all the high school outfielders from the 2005 draft, it seems like he's the guy that gets the least amount of attention [...] and [he] might be better than them all when it's all said and done." (That 2005 draft included notable high school outfielders Cameron Maybin, Andrew McCutchen and Jay Bruce.)

Some will argue that "prospects falter all the time -- he could wind up turning into nothing". Two responses to that: a) he's a blue chip prospect that has an extremely good chance of making the majors and b) if you can't count on your top prospect for two years running in your farm system to pan out then your name might be Ned Colletti (or Brian Sabean). Colby may turn into a pumpkin next year but you're flat out wrong if you think that's the most likely scenario. By the same token any superstar could get seriously injured and be a shell of them former selves (cough Scott Rolen cough). You can't be so gun-shy by anecdotal cases of premier prospects failing that you trade off your best prospect from a weak farm system.

Let's briefly look at some numbers that Colby has put up in the minors. His BB/PA% in Palm Beach in 2006 and last year was above 12%. I've commented a few times about Jarrett Hoffpauir and how his walk rate is what differentiates him from other contact hitters -- well, Rasmus has excellent walk rates as well. He struck out in just shy of 20% of his plate appearances this past year and while that's a number that I suspect will be high throughout his career, as a power hitter, it certainly doesn't seem to be a hindrance thus far. Rick Ankiel posted a .301 isolated power (SLG - AVG) in Memphis and got rave reviews for his power; Colby posted a .276 mark in Springfield (which is, admittedly, more of a hitter's park) as he displays that power we'd expect to see develop between ages 20-25 for a lot of prospects. It's worth noting that his numbers aren't really luck driven either as his BABIP rates have been consistent with the number of line drives and level of power he displays.

For those of you more interested in traditional rate stats, this past year at Springfield, Colby put up a .274/.380/.550 in 2007. That's good for a .930 OPS. Pujols and Duncan appear to be the only players capable of putting up +900 OPS marks in the majors. Colby may not be that good of an offensive player once he reaches the majors but I can count on one hand the number of prospects who put up .900 OPS marks in the Cardinal's system this past year. If we look at some minor league equivalencies (MLEs explained here) from Baseball Prospectus, Rasmus's Springfield line is roughly the equivalent of a .240/.331/.474 major league line. Meaning RIGHT NOW, he's capable -- not that he will; just capable -- of putting up around a .275 EqA (.260 is average). Add in his plus defense at a premium position and his speed and it's entirely possible that he could be an above average player right now in the majors. Given how young he is, that's remarkable. If you apply aging curves to those Springfield numbers, BP projects that Rasmus could peak at .273/.380/.538 given his skillset. Now you may doubt the validity of MLEs, and I'm not arguing against a dose of skepticism there, but even if Rasmus is in the general vicinity of those numbers he's an everyday player if not an All-Star.

This kid is for real and it would behoove the Cardinals to hold on to him -- regardless of the bounty that they could get for him now.

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One minor quibble
Trading of two of our top 5 prospects would probably put the Cardinals in the bottom 5-10 farm systems in the league.

Who gives a shit?  I mean, vulgarity aside, if it got us Miguel Cabrera or Tim Lincecum because we gave up Colby Rasmus and Bryan Anderson...I particularly wouldn't care what Baseball America had to say about the farm system.  We improved the franchise.

They don't hand out a trophy for having the best prospects.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 9, 2007 8:19 AM EST   0 recs

ok
getting out of fantasy land for a minute.

a.) they aren't gonna trade lincecum.
b.) if you gave up cabrera, you are giving up 6 seasons of cheap, above average play for a couple of seasons of cabrera, a guy who can hit like pujols mini, but is probably headed to the same defensive position with all the weight he's put on. 2 years from now, he's a free agent. There's a very good chance Colby gives us = value of Cabrera for a lot less scratch and a lot more years.

i see your point, who cares what is said about our farm system if you're winning now? But selling off the future for band aids isn't working, as AZ noted, even rich teams like the yankees aren't wanting to go that route anymore. Traded young players for older, more established talent isn't bad, but it can get extremely expensive in a hurry  and I don't think it's the best way to win.

by erik on Nov 9, 2007 8:37 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

rich teams like the Yankees aren't wanting to
go that route anymore because people in sports emmulate what others around them do.  They see the Red Sox, who spent a TON of money to go along with younger players who started to come into their own and they decided they wanted to go that route.

I guarantee that for all there blustering, if the Yankees were offered Miguel Cabrera for Melky, Hughes and Kennedy...they'd take it in a heartbeat.

The point, anyways, wasn't just Miguel Cabrera or Tim Lincecum but rather trading Rasmus for a young superstar player.  As far as cost control, players can sometimes be stupid.  Look at Josh Beckett.  Instead of being a FA this off-season, he signed a very dumb contract where he is going to make below market value through 2010.

I'm not talking about trading Colby Rasmus for some 28 year old about to hit FA.  But if offered a young superstar who can have his arbitration years bought out, why would you pass up on that? Just to say we have one of the better farm systems?

If Colby Rasmus is the only piece of real value we have in the farm system, then trading Colby wouldn't be our biggest problem. It is that we have such a thin farm system.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 9, 2007 9:30 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I agree that
I would probably give up Rasmus straight up for Cabrera because Cabrera is a much more gauranteed commodity but there's no way the Yankees would give up Melky, Hughes and Kennedy for him.  Maybe Melky, Kennedy and a 2nd tier prospect.  They need pitching worse than they need hitting.

by eglasier on Nov 9, 2007 9:44 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

They'd still have
Wang and Joba to build around and I'm sure they plan to outbid anyone and everyone for Johan Santana next off-season.

You are probably right, though.  Both Kennedy and Hughes is probably too rich.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 9, 2007 9:47 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Giving
Rasmus for Cabrera is not a smart move. Miggy C is about 3 years away from "Mo Vaughn" status.

Lincecum (even though they're not trading him!), on the other hand, there are few people in the organization that I wouldn't give up for that kid. He's 25, has a solid delivery, and throws the ever-lovin' crap out of the ball. He's a guy you can build a rotation around for years to come.

Bottom line: Rasmus for a youngish position player? No. Rasmus for a young stud pitcher? Yes, in a heartbeat. In my opinion at least.

by Jhusk on Nov 9, 2007 11:14 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

n/t
Miggy C is about 3 years away from "Mo Vaughn" status.

That was my exact thought not 30 seconds before I  saw your comment. Someone needs to grab him by the scruff of the neck and get in his face about not only his work ethic, but his weight.

by cardsrul on Nov 9, 2007 1:44 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Another guy whose career is
almost certainly headed that way is David Ortiz.  I predict a Vaughn-like decline, fast and precipitous.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 9, 2007 2:27 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Especially if
his name ends up on the steroid list.

by cardsrul on Nov 9, 2007 2:29 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Lincecum
Lincecum is actually only 23 (DOB 6/15/1984).

by holden on Nov 9, 2007 5:39 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

the yankees
are losing money with that hefty payroll. they know they need to make cuts. you can have success without a good farm system through trades and free agency, but i don't think you can sustain it that way without being a mega spender, and why be a mega spender when you can plainly win without being one?

by erik on Nov 9, 2007 9:45 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Market correction
Although I agree with erik, Hardcore has me thinking that there might be an ineffeciency in the market that will develop.  The Red Sox are starting to use minor leaguers to fill out positions on their roster to a high success and the Yankees are emulating this strategy.  If these two teams generally drive the market for free agents could we see a market correction for certain posisitons that they no longer are trying to obtain on the free agent market.  2bmen maybe?  I am rambiling, but there is a start of an idea here...

by BigJawnMize on Nov 9, 2007 9:48 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I honestly believe that
if the Chicago White Sox spent a payroll next year of $175 M and won the World Series, the next off-season teams would be throwing money around left and right and the turn towards using the farm system would be reversed.

Sports is very much about seeing what others who win do and trying to do that.

As far as the Red Sox youth movement, they spent $150 M last year, spent another $50 M just to talk to a guy.  If Jacoby Ellsbury hits .215 next season, they'll got trade for Juan Pierre/Jim Edmonds/Older high priced guy to fill in his position because they can afford it.

It's like doing the high-wire act wearing a harness.  Sure, they look great doing it but they are in no real jeopardy of falling and breaking their neck.  Smaller market teams, who go young, have to face the make or break possibility of a young guy flaming out and being stuck without a reliable backup.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 9, 2007 9:55 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Payroll
The MLB payroll average this season, per USA Today, was $69 million, and thats with the Yankees skewing the number tremendously with a payroll of $184 million.  No one is even close to doing what you mention, you think the cards are going to add $70M in payroll if the White Sox do that??  Why pay a guy $10M per year when you can pay a guy $500K for similar or in some cases better production, to me, your argument just doesnt make sense.  If you build your team through FA or trades, you end up like the Cardinals this year, a bunch of overpriced and underperforming vets that you cant move.

by UNCDubya on Nov 9, 2007 10:25 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Age of the team
I only looked at the numbers for this year, but the playoff teams had an average age of 29 years old, the Cardinals had an average age of 31 years.  It looks to me like if you broke down the numbers, it would look even worse, but I'm at work, doh...and this doesnt even take their salaries into account, which makes AZ's argument even stronger.

by UNCDubya on Nov 9, 2007 8:46 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Win Now
We don't need to be in the Top 10 of minor league systems, we just have to win our division.  That has to be the only true goal.  Once you get in playoffs anything can happen.

So if you are playing in the Yanks and Red Sox division maybe the "we can't trade Colby" logic works.  But in our division, we just have to improve incrementally to be there again.  Marquis moving from Cards to Cubs actually had a reasonable impact.  Cabrera would have a huge impact.  

Context is important.  Having a good minor league development process is a good long term strategy, but right now, we just need to do enough to get into the playoffs.

by The Duke on Nov 9, 2007 1:03 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Thanks Azru, now I'll
ask a tough question, knowing that any answer is going to be super-speculative: What major leaguer would you say Rasmus is most likely to become?

Cameron
Edmonds
Sizemore
Steve Finley
Damon
Jerry Mumphrey
Kerry Robinson
Andruw Jones
etc.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 9, 2007 8:38 AM EST   0 recs

Which one is the most
free swinging?  Every game I've seen Colby hit in, he seemingly swings at the first pitch every AB.
"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 9, 2007 9:30 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

True
but then again, Reggie Jackson once walked 92 times in a season.  And he leads MLB history in strikeouts.

But I do agree with the Sizemore comparision, although I don't know if he has Grady's speed.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 9, 2007 9:50 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

i agree
i don't think he'll be same type of fielder or quite the baserunner, but he'll be fine by his own right there two. they are very similar offensively. and seeing that they are using colby in the leadoff spot by the season's end at Springfield, and now for Team USA, that just makes the comp grow all the more.

by erik on Nov 9, 2007 10:32 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Please tell me he doesn't
flail away at pitches in the dirt, a la Willie McGee. (Though the 2nd coming of Willie wouldn't be a bad thing either.)

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 9, 2007 9:46 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I say Edmonds...
He seems to have a lot of the same streaky qualities...I would love to see a Sizemore type career, as I think he will have a better overall numbers than Edmonds did.

by BigJawnMize on Nov 9, 2007 11:49 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Wow, that would be a hell of a career.
Edmonds is going to retire with some outstanding numbers; I wouldn't bet my own money on Sizemore (or Rasmus) besting them.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 9, 2007 2:32 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

You're setting him up to fail, then
Saying he'll be a solid everyday player is one thing.  Saying that he'll be a perennial all-star is another thing entirely.  Edmonds is a borderline hall of famer.  Let's see rasmus put up a seasons worht of major league numbers before we punch his ticket to cooperstown

by Valatan on Nov 9, 2007 11:49 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Good!
Maybe he can convince Pujols to quit taking them first pitch strikes down the middle every time.

by ridgesee on Nov 9, 2007 2:49 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

What about Granderson?
Or Hunter Pence lite?

I personally think of Pence.

by silent_bob on Nov 9, 2007 9:32 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

if you look at pence's milb #'s
and rasmus's #'s, you will see rasmus has been the better prospect. pence had an ungodly .378 babip his first pro season, that's not sustainable.

by erik on Nov 9, 2007 9:49 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

not arguing but
why would you say that Rasmus is the better prospect?  Age?  Colby is 3 years younger...

They've moved up at a similar pace from low A to high A and they performed similarly in AA.

I don't see any reason why Colby won't put up monster numbers in AAA this, do you?

by silent_bob on Nov 9, 2007 11:00 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

JM
I would just like to commend you for working the immortal Jerry Mumphrey into all this.  

by flynn on Nov 9, 2007 10:30 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

You're welcome. I try
to erase the 1970's from my memory, without success.  I am repulsed, and yet I cannot look away.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 9, 2007 11:00 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

that is, to the commendation
While the results of the 70s were repulsive, the colorful characters are such that you should not look away.

TSF

by TedSimmonsFan on Nov 9, 2007 12:00 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Well, when we're talking about
Vern Rapp, Mike Tyson and Scipio Spinks, I stand by my statement!

(Though I'll always treasure watching Simba, Mex, Gibby, Brock and the young Templeton.)

And really, I'd like to forget the whole decade.  (I've forgotten about half of the 1980s, for pharmacological reasons.)

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 9, 2007 2:36 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I say Finley
Minus the steroids, of course.

He'll have a couple of 10 HR/40 SB seasons early, with a few prime seasons of 30/30 before settling into a 15-20/10-15 pattern.

by 26thMan on Nov 9, 2007 7:53 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Just wanted to say...
As I read the last couple paragraphs, the humming of the choir grew steadily louder.

Amen.

by RedbirdRay on Nov 9, 2007 8:43 AM EST   0 recs

I agree
The Cardinals need to build up their farm system for the following reasons:
  1. Payroll- unless you are the Yankees or Red Sox resources are limited and unless you can balance  young (cheap players) with the vets you end up with a team made up of a few really expensive vets and then a bunch of AAAA players as filler (current cardinals are an example)
  2. Trades- If you have depth in your farm system you have the ability to pull off a trade that my net you the vet that will put you over the hump without messing with your ML roster.
   3 Competition- We need depth to create competition in the minors. If you have a talented player at your position above and below you the player is pushed to work harder to move up and even to retain their position. This effect can even be felt at the majors if there is a hot rookie coming up to take your spot.

by emath on Nov 9, 2007 9:03 AM EST   0 recs

That was good emath
You know some stuff you know it. I thought azruavatar's post was the best I've seen in a while but it seems only you and me agree.

by ridgesee on Nov 9, 2007 10:19 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Rebuilding
Everyone wants a quick fix these days it seems.

by emath on Nov 9, 2007 12:08 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

In Italy we say...

... that "The hasty cat gave birth to blind kittens"

Patience, smatness, some risk-taking and more patience, this is what is needed to restock the farm, and this is what the cards have to do to do.

GO CARDS!!!

by SuperSeve on Nov 10, 2007 5:16 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

....Congrats! Nice post...
Excellent meat and potatoes post! The Farm is gonna take a while to build, 30 years of poor drafting to overcome. Or more.....

After watching Rasmus take at least 170 ABs over 07, the one single player I heard people in the seats consistently compare him too, was Van Slyke with slightly more power and evolving speed (lot to learn).

I think Sizemore is a better projection/fit at this point. Keep Rasmus!

The kid was sick and just plain worn out at mid-season and still dealt with the "phenom" pressure in spite of it.

Improve the Cardinals team spirit, integrity and positive public image...sign Bonds for 08'!

by cardschinmusic on Nov 10, 2007 9:18 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Thread Jack: Collusion
The MLBPA is barking loudly that they believe owners and GM are in collusion to drive down the price of Alex Rodriguez and not allowing him to 'get his fair  cut on the free agent market'.

If they are...good for them.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 9, 2007 9:32 AM EST   0 recs

I agree
good for them. This market needs a taking hold of.
"Whitey said that '86 was so bad 'the highlight of the season was a foul ball'"

by Alxfritz on Nov 9, 2007 9:33 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

i also agree
i hope either A) mlb steps in like they are talking about or B) the owners unite together to shun him.

by erik on Nov 9, 2007 9:40 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I'm not all about big business
squishing the individual, but ARod's original contract was so out of wack for the rest of the market that I could see the owners (not exactly collusion) not willing to give him even what Tom Hicks gave him.

Then again, I thought the owners would punish JD Drew from walking away from big money and instead they gave him a flippin raise.

"Well, you wait for a strike. Then you knock the shit out of it. - Musial to Flood on how to hit a curveball

by Hardcore Legend on Nov 9, 2007 9:44 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I will always believe
that epstein and boras did a bit of tampering with that one, at least in spirit (IE:

Epstein: "Hey Scotty, I've got 5/55 available, do you have any outfielders who are worth it?"

Boras:  "Let me get back to you on that".  

...)

by SleepyCA on Nov 9, 2007 12:55 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Collective agreement?
Probably not. A large group of people individually acting rationally in a way that just happens to not involve giving $300 mill to ARod? OK with me.

by MdRedbirdFreak on Nov 9, 2007 9:49 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Besides
The whole ARod market is different than normal.  If the Yanks aren't involved, that'll drive prices down.  And I really think it may only be the Angels seriously talking to him--so they won't bid against themselves if they can help it.

Just because he doesn't get what he wants doesn't make it collusion.

by Cardinal70 on Nov 9, 2007 10:00 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

umm..
That doesn't make any sense. The GMs are the market. They're the ones making the purchase. That's like a real-estate agent accusing the general public of collusion because no one's buying the house he's selling.

by Birds on the Matt on Nov 9, 2007 10:05 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Seriously.
"Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." --Churchill

by lordsummer on Nov 9, 2007 10:37 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I have never understood this
collusion bit. What is a labor union but a group of employees together in a collusion to get the most possible out of an employer. Now don't get me wrong, I spent my whole 37 years of working as a member of a large nationwide labor union. I was involved in 4 strikes. The company also is nationwide and used all the collusion it could muster from all it's different subsiduaries and outside forces, to combat a walkout. And we had no recourse other to eccept. How was the major league owners ever stupid enough to let the MLB players assn. get this kind of power into a working agreement.

by ridgesee on Nov 9, 2007 10:36 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

You obviously
need a history lesson.  Prior to the MLB players union the players had virtually no rights and most were not paid accordingly.  The union was originally formed by the players to develop a pension system for retired players but evolved into an organization that abolished the reserve clause, creating free agency.  People can complain about the players making too much money, but teams must be able to make enough money to pay those players that amount: if they aren't making that amount of cash then they made a poor business decision, a la Tom Hicks.  The reserve clause stated the the club had an option to renew the previous year's contract at the same terms virtually FOREVER; some clubs opted to pay their better players a larger wage, but none actually had to, they could just renew their league minimum contract for years on end and the players could do nothing about it.  The union protects the players interests to be paid according to their talents and also to keep them from suffering undue punishment at the expense of the owners.  It does not keep them from seeking to get paid more than what they're worth, like Barry Zito and JD Drew.

Secondly, collusion among owners is a significant issue for the sport.  Everyone loves Bart Giamatti, but he and Fay Vincent were involved in a behind the scenes plot with ownership to control the price of free agent players instead of letting the market set their value.  To say that collusion isn't a problem is shortsighted and incorrect.  If the owners were able to completely control how much other teams offered for free agents they would literally control the market and the cost of players, they could then designate who got what players and how.  This is an unhealthy system and would not be good for the sport, only for the owners who would line their pockets with the money saved in payroll.

The A-Rod situation is a special one: only a few clubs can afford to pay what Boras insists that he is worth, so there will be no bidding war for him, and A-Rod may end up on the short end of the stick because of this.   I do believe that Boras may have finally outthought himself.  His client gave up a guaranteed $72 million to go fishing in a free agent market in which few teams can afford to pay his $350 million pricetag.  Boras took one of the four teams that could afford to pay this completely out of the running already; that team also happened to be the only team that could drive up the size of the contract against other teams.  The only teams that can truly afford that type of money are:

NY Mets: They already have a stud 3B and SS who are locked up for multiple years and are younger than Alex -- why pay that kind of money when you could lock up Wright and Reyes BOTH for about 8 years for the same amount?

LA Angels: They say they aren't interested, but they have all the other pieces in place to make a run, tons of money, and a gaping hole at 3B right now.  Signing A-Rod would also give them the opportunity to trade players like Brandon Wood for help in other areas, like SP.

Detroit Tigers: This is where I see him ending up.  The Tigers have signed free agents above bar for the past couple of seasons, have a couple of Boras clients on the roster, and have the type of team that should contend the next 3 or 4 seasons with their young pitchers.  ARod would also probably get to move back to SS if he signs here, which may be a factor.

Regardless, if his deal is 10 years at $30 to $35 million a season, A-Rod better be attune to the fact that he will:

  1. Be literally untradeable
  2. Probably finishing his career with some really craptastic teams
  3. May never win a World Series championship, especially if baseball economics stay the way that they are.
"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Nov 9, 2007 12:33 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Don't forget the Rangers' Contribution
Re: ARod, the Rangers were on the hook for $21M to the Yankees.  Unless any restructuring would void that payment (which I doubt), Boras essentially eliminated the richest player who was playing in part WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY.  

He'll probably prove me wrong in the end, but at this point I'm scratching my head.

by Secret Weapon on Nov 9, 2007 1:13 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Rangers' contribution
Actually, the Rangers are still on the hook for $9 million in deferred payments, per the original contract.  There's no getting out of that one, although deferred usually means smaller portions drawn out over years.  But technically, he'll still be playing with other people's money, just a much smaller amount.

That said, I don't know if or when those deferred payments have/will start... potentially, years from now, after he's been long gone from the Rangers, they'll still be paying him.  :-)

by SmashedAtoms on Nov 9, 2007 1:59 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Fourstick
I realized I made a bold statement and I appriciate your spirited response But I did not need the history lesson. I have followed baseball closely since 1946 and I am very familiar with the reserve clause. You probably got your information from reading about something I lived through. I had great respect for Curt Flood when He challanged the reserve clause in the courts. I kept up with it as it was happening. I hated the trade to Philedelphia, when he and Mc Carver went there. The reserve clause was very unfair and going back further than I guess you have read up on.. Commisioner Mountian Landis controlled baseball with an iron fist for many years. He was the one that kept baseball exempt from antitrust laws that govern ordinary businesses in this country. By US congress, baseball was excluded from antitrust laws as was other sports by Landis arguments before them. Now we know that is not right and would ultimately be reversed someday and really one lone ballplayer did it..Curt Flood and he couldn't muster up any support from any other players. He paid a great price. Now with that said. I don't remember any major league players that that didn't make much much more money that most fans that were paying to see them. They had the best of working conditions. Made a lot of money form indorsements. Lived the high life. But lets get back to what I actually said. I never really gave an Opinion, I just stated that I did not know why the owners were so stupid as to let them gain that control. No other working agreement with any other union that I know of has any wording about collusion. I personally think that the owners have enough pressure from fans and other sources that collusion would not be a problem for players and salaries would be adaquate and A fan would be able to take his family to a ballgame and have money for food and drinks...Personally I think the Mlb players union should have fresh flowers placed on Curt Flood's grave every day and I never even mention Arods contract at all, but you seemed to think I needed a lesson on it also.

by ridgesee on Nov 9, 2007 3:44 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

PS and to further answer
Fourstick's comments on my earlier remarks, it was only after Curt Flood's long court battle  (in which  he recieved no support from MLB players) had been ruled in his favor and that reserve clause was declared to be unconstutional and overturned: only then did Marvin Miller A union savy lawyer sieze upon the opertunity to form a union of MLB players and boy have they profited from what just one player had the guts to do. I did not mean to get so lenghty on this topic but after I was challenged so on my first remarks I wasn't so sure a lot of people was really familiar with how it came about. Sorry for the delay between my other comments, but I was going out for dinner with my wife and did not complete my first remarks.

by ridgesee on Nov 9, 2007 6:57 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I brought up A-Rod
because of the special circumstances surrounding his contract, which is what the original poster was talking about when he brought up collusion.  The owners colluding is illegal under United States law, and any proof of that could be used in court by the players as a violation of the National Labor Relations Act.  This would be a stupid idea on the owners part because Congress could pull their anti-trust exemption in a heartbeat if they are not willing to bargain in good faith.  The reason that baseball players have it so good is because they have shown the resolve to stick together for their cause over the last 30 years.  The owners have nobody to blame but themselves for the current salary structure.  People like Steinbrenner started buying up players for much more than any team was willing to pay them.  The contract that Catfish Hunter signed was the A-Rod deal of the time.  The players should bargain to get the best deal that they can -- would you turn down that kind of money if someone was willing to pay it?

I hate to correct you, but Curt Flood himself did not end the reserve clause.  He threw himself to the mercy of public opinion, which allowed Miller to negotiate changes in the CBA in the late 1970's .  Andy Messersmith and Dave McNally were the players directly responsible for the repealing of the reserve clause when they won their court case to become free agents.

I'm sorry, but the argument that the players "made the same money as the fans watching them" is misconstrued.  Roberto Clemente always made more money than someone working for a steel mill in Pittsburgh, but Clemente's career would have been no longer than 15-18 years had it not been tragically cut short.  The average steelworker at the time could expect a 20-30 year career and have a nice fat pension at retirement, all thanks to the hard work of the Steelworkers Union.  Baseball players took that union attitude and brought it into baseball not to get paid more, but to allow them the same benefits and pension agreements that other working class people had at the time.

"The Cardinals have won a World Series in THEIR new stadium!" --my Uncle Jim to a heckling Cubs fan

by fourstick on Nov 11, 2007 3:23 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

You know,
it is not worth getting into an aguement with you because I have found out that you misinterperpet much of what you read and twist a lot of the other just to present an arguemnt. First, I did not say that players made the same as the fans that watched them under the reserve clause. Go back and reread. what I actually said was "players still made MUCH, MUCH more than the majority of fans that watched them and  and made even more from indorsements" in a lot of cases double their salaries. It took you 2 days of obviously doing some research, before you could even answer my response to your critizism. And you still had to twist some things. You obviously knew nothing when you decided to give me your silly little history lesson. So admit it and move on. I am familiar with the Andy Messersmith case and I don't believe what you stated about it is right. (but I'll go back and check) and what you stated about collusion of the owners is absolutely false and not a violation of any anti-trust labor relation laws. It would be only a violation of their working agreement with MLB players union and therefore subject to aurbutration.

by ridgesee on Nov 11, 2007 4:10 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

PS The next poster has got it right
Lord give me patience and I need it right now

by ridgesee on Nov 11, 2007 4:14 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I checked and
You are right on one thing. I did remember wrong. Floods case was not decided in his favor, but Marvin Miller got in the act when Flood's decision was handed down and convinced Messersmith and Mc Nally to hold out from signing a contract for a year and and with that he was sure that he could take that to court and win the battle against the reserve clause as it was worded as the "Club holding the option to renew a player's contract for next preeceding year. But really like I stated It was Flood that fought the long battle and paid the price and Marvin Miller, who was a savy union lawyer that formed the union and made millions for himself and others while Flood died pretty much a pauper.

by ridgesee on Nov 11, 2007 5:05 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Lord, give me patience...
and I need it RIGHT NOW!!!!

Okay, I'm kidding (mostly)... but rebuilding the farm system is going to take at least a few more years. As far as 2008 is concerned, I'm of the opinion that trading for a legit #2 starter will require the Cardinals giving up a player (or players) already on their MLB roster!

Rasmus is obviously the Birds' best position prospect... they'd be foolish to trade him. "Second-tier" minor leaguers aren't going to get the "return" the Cards need.

My hunch is they'll re-sign Eckstein to a one-or-two-year deal, and try to trade for a pitcher. That deal might even cost the Cards Chris Duncan; but if the "return" is good enough, so be it. Rolen's not going anywhere unless he wants out; and there's some serious doubt in my mind that the Cards could get credible value in return. (There's also no young guy ready to play 3B right now; another argument for keeping Rolen.)

But without some improvement in the rotation, none of the other moves the Birds make will make much difference in the club's overall fortunes.

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Nov 9, 2007 10:50 AM EST