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greenie goblins

as far as i can tell, the regular media aren't touching yesterday's disclosures at deadspin re albert pujols' trainer. haven't found an article anywhere; checked the dailies in st louis, phoenix, and kansas city, and there's nothing in print. yet. but keith olbermann mentioned it on his tv news show last night, according to somebody over at bernie miklasz's forum, and they say dan patrick and olbermann -- without naming names, although they claim to have seen them -- were talking about how the (inevitable) leaking of the blacked-out names will "rock baseball."

how prominent of a player would have to be implicated, directly or indirectly, for baseball to be "rocked" by this scandal? i can only think of three: roger clemens. derek jeter. albert pujols. these are the only guys who transcend the sport -- are household names as joe dimaggio used to be -- and haven't already been linked to steroids.

but if deadspin's information is accurate -- and i believe that it is -- does that truly implicate albert as a steroid abuser? you'd have to be high on some pretty strong amphetamines to draw that conclusion, based on current information. all the affadavit says is that 'redacted' (presumably mihlfeld) -- and i'm now quoting from page 14 of the affadavit -- "once referred him [grimsley] to an amphetamine source." redacted probably shouldn't have done that, but let's put it into context. on page 12 of the affadavit, grimsley says that "until last year, Major League clubhouses had coffee pots labeled 'leaded' and 'unleaded' for the players, indicating coffee with amphetamines and without." until last year -- ie, through the 2004 season -- mihlfeld worked for grimsley's team, the kansas city royals. so if the statement about spiked coffee is accurate -- and it's right there in the affadavit, with no redactions -- then the royals were directly supplying amphetamines to grimsley and all the other guys in mihlfeld's clubhouse. the team was doing that -- mihlfeld's employer.

if his employer was openly supplying these drugs in the clubhouse to every player, why would mihlfeld hesitate to direct one player to other sources of amphetamines? why would he consider that an ethical breach of some kind? for that matter, why should we be surprised that mihlfeld knew where to send grimsley for greenies? somebody was supplying the royals' training staff with whatever they brewed into their "leaded" coffee.

if that's as far as it goes -- mihlfeld referred grimsley to a source who could provide amphetamines -- well whoooooop-de-doo. that don't prove nothin' -- not about chris mihlfeld, and certainly not about albert pujols.

but what if it goes farther than that?

what if we learn that mihlfeld routinely sent players to the same drug pusher he referred grimsley to -- that it was part of a pattern? what if we find out that greenie usage was an integral part of mihlfeld's training methods -- that he "prescribed" them, if you will, to enhance his clients' results? then it becomes considerably murkier. and if it should surface that grimsley was not the only mihlfeld client to use hgh, i will have a hard time believing that pujols is clean.

we don't know these things yet, so it's way too soon to accuse pujols of anything. but it's also too soon to say, with full confidence, that he has never taken hgh. i'm sure we'll learn a lot more about chris mihlfeld in the coming days and weeks -- and what we learn will either deflect suspicion away from albert, or intensify it.

may it be the former.

joe strauss claims the cardinals' trade talks are intensifying. wasn't that really, really important a couple days ago? yesterday morning? . . . it still is, and will soon return to the forefront of our thoughts. the sooner the better.

a final note: gateway redbirds has posted an interview with colby rasmus, using questions submitted by forum members.

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It's still too early
to abandon Pujols. We are just speculating at this time that his name is anywhere in that affadavit. As Cardinal fans, we should stand by him until proof is provided. IF proof is provided then I am finished. Pujols has represented a "new life" for the tainted game of baseball. I will stand by him UNTIL there is Bonds-like proof provided. I wish now Pujols would not have voiced support for Bonds. That doesn't help him any. For God's sake Albert get tested and BE CLEAN!!
"Forget about the curveball Ricky...Give him the heater!!"

by BleacherBum on Jun 9, 2006 9:40 AM EDT   0 recs

Pujols getting tested...
HGH is very hard to test for, there is only one test that can detect it and it is extremely difficult to produce the antibodies needed to test for it. That is why MLB doesn't test for HGH, but they need to hold on to all the urine samples and then test them when they do get a test that will detect HGH that they can run consistently.

by lopey986 on Jun 9, 2006 10:06 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Reds, or Redlegs?
In my mind, Pujols defending Bonds shows me that he's probably clean.  Would you bring your name into the drug discussion if you were using?

I talked about this at the end of the last post, but doesn't this smell like the communist witch hunt?  Anytime somebody has "links" to somebody else that "knows" a drug supplier, they are guilty in the court of public opinion. They are now under strong suspicion of using illegal performance enhancing drugs.  Really?  We can make that leap?

Seriously folks, this is getting out of hand.  I respect your opinion tremendously lboros, but you're feeding the monster right now.  Let it die unless there is some actual proof.

P.S.  For those of you that don't know, the Reds changed their name to the Redlegs for a while due to communist scare of the 50's.

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Jun 9, 2006 10:09 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i see your point
but there's a big difference. being a communist was never against the law. people were being persecuted and punished for their constitutionally protected political beliefs.

taking hgh is neither legal nor constitutionally protected.

by lboros on Jun 9, 2006 10:12 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Legalily
Knowing someone who knows how to get amphetemenes isn't illegal either.  There is the connection.

P.S.  The whole argument against people that had a communist connection is that they were spying on the government (treason).  That is a much worse crime than taking HGH.

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Jun 9, 2006 10:16 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

there's still no comparison
thousands of innocent lives were ruined in the mccarthy era; innocent people lost their livelihoods, careers, friendships.

whereas in this case, even guilty parties continue to ply their trade. no innocent party has been significantly harmed, as far as i can tell --- beyond having unflattering things said and whispered about them. but who (that is innocent) has lost work because of mere suspicion? who has been shunned by their community? how many guys have been hauled before congress and forced to testify?

that's what happened in the mccarthy era -- and it wasn't about rooting out spies (altho that's what mccarthy claimed), it was about intimidating people with certain political leanings.

i just don't think the analogy holds

by lboros on Jun 9, 2006 12:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Actually it was
about rooting out spies. We know that Stalin knew we had an atomic bomb before our own president. There were a large number of soviet spies in the state department, and although the witch hunt grew out of control, there was actually something to be afraid of. Besides communism is one of the worlds greatest evils, so it deserves a lot more investigation. Steroids in baseball isn't going to kill a 100,000 people in a Gulag...
Never since the days of shoeless Joe Jackson have I ever seen such a great shoeless athlete...

by robdouth on Jun 9, 2006 2:38 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

What if...
Mihlfeld's career is ruined because of this.  What if his name isn't even on the affidavid (or what if it is and he's not guilty)?  Do you think he's going to get many new clients?  I'm sure Carl Crawford is sitting around thinking, man I need a new trainer.  What was that guy that got implicated in the HGH mess's name?  

Don't you think that's like the many actors in Hollywood that couldn't find work after they were "implicated"?  Maybe it's not a perfect analogy, but I definitely think you can see a corollation.

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Jun 9, 2006 3:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

if mihlfeld is cleared
he's gonna come out in better shape than if he had never been named at all. his integrity will have been challenged --- and withstood the challenge.

sort of like the todd helton thing from last year. wayne hagin specifically named his as a steroid user ---- helton vigorously denied using, and hagin had to backpedal like crazy. last i heard, no harm to helton; on the contrary, he's widely regarded as beyond suspicion.

by lboros on Jun 9, 2006 3:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I respectfully disagree lboros....
For instance, If I am looking to buy a new car, I tend to steer clear(sorry of the pun)of any dealer that has been accused of ripping people off. There may be no proof, but I sure wouldn't take that chance.
"Forget about the curveball Ricky...Give him the heater!!"

by BleacherBum on Jun 9, 2006 3:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

1996 Atlanta
William Jewell.  All I'm saying.

by flynn on Jun 9, 2006 3:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

no comparison
jewell was raided by the fbi, and criminal proceedings were launched against him.

that hasn't happened to mihlfeld.

by lboros on Jun 9, 2006 3:48 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Sure there's a comparison
I was at Centennial Park one hour before the bomb went off, and followed the case intently for months, so I'm familiar with the whole deal.  Of course Mihlfeld hasn't been under the micrscope Jewell was, but I think it's a fair comparison.  

Jewell was initially tabbed as a villian on information and belief, was dissected ad nasuem by the press, and then had his claims of innocence vindicated when the truth was revealed.

Mihlfeld, so far, has been tabbed as a bad guy on the basis of an unidentified source claiming to know what's behind a black smear on an affidavit, and has been discussed at great length in the blogworld.   Hopefully, his claims of innocence will be vindicated when (if?) the truth is revealed.

The severity of their charges differ, but their positions immediately after their names were dragged into the middle of an unfortunate event- guilty in the court of public opinion - are the same.

I'm just echoing what most are saying here: let's see some proof before we start convicting anyone.

by flynn on Jun 9, 2006 4:29 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

actually, i and about
half of the posters in this corner of the blogworld have been defending mihlfeld --- and defending him even if he is the person known as 'redacted,' and even if he is guilty of everything the affidavit alleges 'redacted' did.

he has had defenders elsewhere as well.

i still don't think there's any comparison between what happened jewell and what happened to mihlfeld. here's what would be analogous: the feds stage a raid of mihlfeld's shop, and the 6 o'clock news is full of footage of white-gloved agents carrying "evidence" away from the "crime scene." copies of the warrants are publicized, full of inaccurate information about mihlfeld's activities. a grand jury is convened to indict mihlfeld . . . .

that would be analogous. what happened to jewell was on a scale that materially changed his life circumstances. (ditto that scientist down at los alamos, can't think of his name . . . . wei?)

whereas, if mihlfeld turns out not to be mr 'redacted,' this will blow over and he'll go on training athletes just as he did before his name ever came up.

by lboros on Jun 9, 2006 5:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Not what I said.
I guess my qualifying statement about the "severity of the charges being different" wasn't clear enough, because that's what you are focusing on, rather than the only stated comparison I was making - "both were deemed guilty in the court of public opinon" almost instantly by many people.  

I never claimed that Mihlfeld had to deal with what Jewell went through exactly, or that the magnitude of what he was purportedly involved in was the same.  You did.  I used Jewell as my comparison because I hope Mihlfeld, like Jewell, will go down as a person initially charged with somehting only to eventually have his name cleared.  Comparisons can be made between disparate people who have only certain things in common.  You just limit your comparison to certain things, which is what I did when I spelled it all out. Hopefully, most people caught my drift.  

by flynn on Jun 9, 2006 11:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

you are saying
that the experiences these two men went through are comparable --- they both have had the experience of being falsely accused in the court of public opinion.

and i'm saying the experiences of these two men are not comparable at all. what chris mihlfeld is experiencing is not at all comparable to what richard jewell is experiencing. it is comparable to what todd helton experienced.

for that matter, we don't even know if mihlfeld is falsely accused. he says his name isn't in the report; we'll find out sooner or later if he's telling the truth.

by lboros on Jun 10, 2006 10:00 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

excuse me,
not comparable to what richard jewell experienced. got mah verb tenses mixed up.

as long as back in here, more hot air: the severity of the charges isn't the distinction i'm drawing. what makes these two cases different is the authority of the accuser. mihlfeld has been accused by a website that has no legal standing, and only a modest standing in the court of public opinion; jewell was accused by the f-b-freakin-i, which had the power to seize his property, compel the testimony of his family and friends, and initiate a prosecution that might lead to jewell's being put in jail for years and years.

that's why i don't think you can compare them. mihlfeld is a suspect in the court of public opinion; jewell was a suspect in the actual court system. big difference.

by lboros on Jun 10, 2006 10:14 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

all I'm saying is...
"you are saying that the experiences these two men went through are comparable --- they both have had the experience of being falsely accused in the court of public opinion."

Yes.  And that's all I'm saying.  I thought I qualified that by the disclaimers of "not under the same microscope" and "not the same severity."  You keep going beyond what I'm saying in order to ridicule my comparison.

by flynn on Jun 10, 2006 2:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i'm not trying to ridicule the comparison
but there is a current of thought in this thread -- and in our society in general -- that the media are a destructive force in our society. that's what began this particular part of the conversation -- comparing the steroid investigations to "a witch hunt."

i disagree with those comparisons, and i think they are faulty. that's not ridicule, it's just a diff'nce of opinion.

i've already explained why your disclaimers (viz "less severe" and "not under same microscope") don't wash with me. no need to repeat myself. but i'm not reading too much into what you said; "richard jewell" carries very specific connotations, and if you didn't mean to invoke them then you shouldn't have brought up his name.

by lboros on Jun 11, 2006 10:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Interesting point but...
You are assuming he is going to be cleared and not just "left hanging".  That's a big assumption.  Hagin backtracked because he made a public accusation without any proof.  This left someone to take the heat.  Mihlfeld DID help Grimsley get back from TJ surgery and all you need is a "link" to someone that took it to be implicated.  There will always be people that wonder.

I'm also not sure how Helton has come off better by being implicated.  I don't see any new endorsements coming his way and he went through a lot of crap.  I doubt if HE would say that he's better off.  The only thing that has happened is that the speculation has died down.  Maybe in some people's minds they think he was exhonerated, but I bet you there are other people that think Hagin just didn't have any proof and that he's guilty.  Every time the Cards play the Rockies and Hagen is around it gets brought up again.

"It takes pitching, hitting and defense. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable". Joe Garagiola

by MRCARD on Jun 9, 2006 3:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i live in denver
and i know helton is doing just fine. he has quite a number of endorsement deals, the colorado fans revere him, and he makes $15 million a year to play a kid's game.

if i could have all that at the cost of somebody occasionally whispering that i was a cheater, i would grab it in a heartbeat

by lboros on Jun 9, 2006 4:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Well aware of the Redlegs,
MRCARD, and a very poignant observation.

by bgh on Jun 9, 2006 10:40 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

well said MRCARD
you are gentleman and a scholar!
"Forget about the curveball Ricky...Give him the heater!!"

by BleacherBum on Jun 9, 2006 12:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

speaking of the Reds
You should have added Ken Griffey Jr. to your list of players that have never been linked to steroids. His 540+ steroid free home runs are a testament to his greatness. He is, in my opinion, the only true first ballot Hall of Famer playing in the National League today.

Lets all hope that Albert is clean and can join Griffey in that truly elite status.

What ever happened to John Romonosky?

by Columbus Jets on Jun 9, 2006 12:43 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

oh come on
there's more than griffey.  even throwing out players who's names have been linked with steriods, you still have maddux, smoltz, bagwell, biggio, pedro.  and those are just the guys I thought of without looking anything up.  

by PGeorge on Jun 9, 2006 1:23 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

alex rodriguez
has never been implicated in this or whispered about, that i can recall

by lboros on Jun 9, 2006 1:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

ethics
a lot of this hinges on whether or not Mihlfeld referred more than one player to the "pusher man"

however, even if he did only refer Grimsley, it does mean that he recommended to one of his clients using substances such as HGH to enhance his results.

I have no idea what kind of code of ethics governs athletic trainers, but i can't imagine that recommending harmful substances is an ethically sound practice for an athletic trainer.

I said it earlier today, Albert needs to drop this guy if it does in fact come out that he connected Grimsley to a pusher. ties with that will easily lead to instant assumptions and he'll be forever guilty in the eyes of the public

by VanRam on Jun 9, 2006 9:54 AM EDT   0 recs

but there's no evidence
that mihlfeld recommended HGH -- not yet. if we just take it at face value, he referred grimsley to an amphetamine source -- and since the club itself was supplying amphetamines (per grimsley's affidavit statement), i don't see that as being particularly alarming.

if we call out mihlfeld, then there are probably a lot of head trainers for big-league clubs who have at least as much to answer for . . .  

by lboros on Jun 9, 2006 10:05 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

but
the same source, according to Grimsley's affidavit, provided him with HGH and Steroids. So Mihlfeld didn't recommend HGH, but he did connect him to a source for amphetamines. I don't know if that act in and of itself is illegal, but I can't imagine to be an ethical behavior for an athletic trainer who is professionally tasked with promoting strong, healthy bodies.

it also brings up another question, why would Mihlfeld suggest another source for amphetamines if the club was providing it? The first rule of drug use is to get it where you can in the easiest, least risky way. (we all know finding speed in Jackson County, MO isn't a difficult proposition.)

So, no, it's not particularly alarming, but it is still unethical and VERY suspicious.

if the trainers are key links in the supply of drugs to ball players, then go after them.

I still think that when/if Mihlfeld's name comes out that AP will have to dump him. Look at all the speculation about AP now, can you imagine what will happen if he's still connected to this guy?

Look at it this way, Tom Delay is a good friend to lots of schmucks on capitol hill, but because he's so tied to scandal the other elected bozos have to distance themselves from a know crook, even when that known crook is a good friend and even better fund raiser.

by VanRam on Jun 9, 2006 10:45 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

it is suspicious, no doubt
but until we have more facts, it is just as credible to believe that mihlfeld has no connection to HGH as to believe that he did have a connection.

i need to see evidence of a pattern of HGH (or other steroid) use among his clients before i conclude that mihlfeld knowingly helped grimsley obtain HGH.

by lboros on Jun 9, 2006 10:50 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

true
and i suspect that info won't really start coming out until there's a full fledged trial. the worst part is the widespread speculation that will implicate albert just as soon as Mihlfeld's name gets out from under the marker

by VanRam on Jun 9, 2006 10:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Look, the guy has to make a living
He's not gonna want to lose business from guys who wanna do illegal stuff.  I'd imagine he's still willing to train the guys.   He just won't supply the illegal stuff.

by sdrone on Jun 9, 2006 11:55 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Greenies
I'm not really sure how I feel about players taking Amphetamines, or Greenies as they call them. How much of a difference maker are they? I don't know very much about them at all, I know they give guys energy to keep going and it is a long ass season and bodys just break down. If anyone can explain what Greenies actually do to improve ones performance that would be helpful.

Now, HGH is a whole 'nother story. IF (big IF) Albert were to be implicated as an HGH user, it could very well ruin baseball for me. The next couple weeks this story will definately heat up and we will find out some names and once someone questions Albert about his trainer we will get his side of the story. Should be interesting.

by lopey986 on Jun 9, 2006 10:03 AM EDT   0 recs

Too early to worry
I think that it is way too early to worry about this.  Fact is, we don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is indeed Mihlfeld's name that is redacted.  If it comes out that it is indeed his name, then we can begin speculating if Pujols is guilty or not.  I don't know if anyone watched the Sunday Conversation on SC a couple of weeks ago and Pujols said that they can test him everyday.  Pujols' body has always remained the same, if anything he has gained some fat (his words).  The names are going to be leaked eventually, but until then, let's sit back and critique this team like we have been doing the past several days.

Living in Phoenix, we get a lot of information on this ordeal.  A local news station here did an interview with Lance Williams (co-author of Game of Shadows), and he said that most of the names come from the Orioles team that Grimsley played with.  Another name that would "rock baseball" would be Cal Ripken, wouldn't it?  I believe that Grimsley played with him, but then again I could be wrong.

by BigdJC on Jun 9, 2006 10:08 AM EDT   0 recs

mihlfield
i feel the same way.  i am not going to get worked up until we know it actually is mihlfeld's name in there.  someone posted an interesting picture of the affidavit on the BotB messageboard.  note that if the letter d was the last letter of the blacked out name, the top of the d would likely still be showing.  it seems pretty clear the last letter of of the name is not a tall letter.  of course maybe its mihlfeld jr., but i could find any reference on google to a mihlfeld jr.

http://www.birdsonthebat.com/showthread.php?t=38530

by dmb60614 on Jun 9, 2006 10:38 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

very interesting
Thanks for posting that link, dmb. It's quite interesting, and I recommend others check it out. I ain't no expert, but it sure doesn't look like "Mihlfeld" behind the blackout to me.  Note also that his name is an even worse fit for the redacted spot in the last paragraph on page 14.

Not definitive, but certainly another reason to suspend judgment.

DCGreg

by DCGreg on Jun 9, 2006 11:26 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i
agree with this...way to early to get upset over possibilities. It has been 3+ yrs and still no solid proof on Bonds...i think most of us think he did it but lets look at bonds for those that are worries about albert. Ablert's head is not any bigger than day one and his body is roughly trhe same...google bonds photos of his Pitt days even early SF days and now one from last yr..Night and day night and day...

To me its like deffending a friend..albert says he's clean i support him..if that friend lie you at least support them until the bitter end..And i have been wrong when people lied to me...just my opinion

by punchinjudy on Jun 9, 2006 1:30 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

"no solid proof on bonds"?
Dude, in the leaked grand jury testimony he admitted to taking "the cream" and "the clear," the latter being THG.

Unknowingly or not, there's your Bonds proof.

by 26thMan on Jun 9, 2006 7:07 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

no, ripken
was retired by then. grimsley didn't join the o's until 2004.

but he did play on the yankees when they were in the midst of their world champ'ship run. jeter, clemens, mussina, rivera . . . .

by lboros on Jun 9, 2006 10:39 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Is Pujols Clean?
I have no idea.

I am hoping that he is clean. I want to believe that he is clean but I will not be naive about this and blatantly trump his innocence before knowing all the facts.

I do know that the court of public opinion has already begun. I live in NY. If Chris Mihlfeld is implicated in the affidavit and people in NY hear of the connection between Mihlfeld and Pujols, most people will accuse him of using. This is not fair but it's a fact of life. Human nature at it's worst. Of course, if it was Derek Jeter's personal trainer then he would be clean because he is Derek Jeter and he is a Yankee and he can do no wrong.

The problem is that we are now seeing that performance enhancing drugs have been and maybe continue to be prevalent in MLB. Because of this, everyone will be guilty until proven innocent. A couple of weeks ago, Trevor Hoffman had an interesting quote in the San Diego Union-Trib: "Can people trust again?"

Here is the quote:

"Maybe he's being unfairly judged because of what's gone on," says Padres closer Trevor Hoffman, who often has spoken out against drugs. "Too much has gone on now to have that trust. Obviously, you have to look at his division (the NL Central) and that every ballpark is a joke and he's getting pitched to. And he's in the prime of his life (26). He's not doing it at 35.

"I know Albert made that comment about seeing the ball and hitting the ball, but we have guys taking 40 home run seasons into 60 home run seasons. Until you find out what's inside a particular animal, you can't pass judgment, but your eyes don't deceive you. The quick answer is not going to come. Can people trust again? It's nice to have a policy in place, but I don't know if we can get the trust back with this policy. Let's start taking blood and tissue samples."

by jdubya on Jun 9, 2006 10:09 AM EDT   0 recs

but if pitchers around the league...
are the ones who've been forced to stop juicing/greenies/whatever, that could also account for a spike in home runs from a still clean AP...

by gthedamned on Jun 9, 2006 1:55 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

One thing I think you are all over looking
In our attempt to stay positive I think there is one detail from the affadavit that we are all chosing to ignore. We are all saying that Mihfeld only refered Grimsly to someone who was an amphetamine source. I hate to point this out but I'm affraid he was a little more than that... or at least according to Affadavit. From page 14 (I quote) "Grimsley stated that after his referral he secured amphetamines, anabolic steroids, and human growth hormone from [redacted] reffered source." I don't want to believe any of those either guys, but thise source was clearly more than a greenie source, If Albert use him he could have recieved anything he wanted from him. Not just Greenies.

by BigMac545 on Jun 9, 2006 10:30 AM EDT   0 recs

yes, but grimsley
didn't ask 'redacted' for a referral to an HGH source --- if we take the affidavit at face value. it's true that the referred source provided all sorts of junk -- but we still have to consider the intent of 'redacted' in making the referral. as far as 'redacted' knew, he was only helping grimsley obtain drugs that were already readily available in his own clubhouse. if the referral was for the purpose of obtaining HGH, that would be a more serious matter in my mind.

by lboros on Jun 9, 2006 10:44 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

that's the
hard part to prove. but this could easily be one of those subtle nuances, a definition of what "is" is kind of thing. "Here's a guy who can just get you amphetamines (wink, wink)" kind of referrals.

He technically didn't ask for an HGH/roids course, and redacted technically didn't provide him with a source for those things. the trick is whether or not he made this referral knowing that Grimsley could get those extras. question for the lawyers out there, isn't this called plausible deniability or something like that?

by VanRam on Jun 9, 2006 10:55 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

we don't disagree
but the guy deserves benefit of the doubt. it might have been a "wink wink" referral . . . but it is equally believeable that it wasn't.

by lboros on Jun 9, 2006 10:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

you're right
and he's entitled to that presumption under the law.

still, what nasty situation all of this is.

side note: check out King Kaufman's column at Salon from yesterday for really good perspective on this Grimsley/drugs in baseball mess.

http://www.salon.com/sports/col/kaufman/2006/06/08/thursday/index.html

by VanRam on Jun 9, 2006 11:28 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Referral
Yeah, we honestly have no idea what kind of referral it was.  Grimsley could have badgered him into it, or maybe redacted could have thought he was just looking for slightly stronger no-doze to deal with jet lag or whatever.

We don't really know the situation.  And we can spend all our time trying to divine the names from the affadavit but we still don't know for sure.

After arguing that there is some implicit guilt most of yesterday, I can certainly see the doubt now (after a nights sleep on it).

by dontEATnachos on Jun 9, 2006 11:17 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I dont want to admit it but...
Ryan I dont think any of that matters. Pujols could have been looking for Greenies. Mihfeld could have said... go to this guy to get them. But upon meeting this source could have said... you know Albert I have HGH as well. Point is is that Grimsley got Steroids and HGH from this source that Mihfeld reccomended to him. Therefore we must assume that it is possible that Albert did the exact same thing. Im not saying that that was Mihfeld's intent, im just saying that Grimsleys affadavit states that he ot more than Greenies from this source. Thus, it is entirely reasonable to think that anyone else coming in contact with this source (hopefuly not Albert) could have just as easily recieved Steroids and HGH as well.

by BigMac545 on Jun 9, 2006 11:21 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree but...
I agree with you Larry, but the thing is is that Pujols could have easily dont exactly what Grimsley could have done. Pujols could have gotten HGH for this source and Pujols could be using HGH and no one would know since there is no test for it. I think the only think of Pujols to do is offer a blood sample for tests. He has to to clear his name.

by BigMac545 on Jun 9, 2006 11:16 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

the affidavit
As an attorney and the writer of many affidavits, I can tell you that 9 of 10 attorneys are going to be as broad as possible when writing them.  If I was trying to investigate HGH & steroids and was writing Grimsley's affidavit, I would be sure to say "[redacted] referred me to a source for amphetamines, and made it clear that I would also be able to secure steroids and hgh from his source."  Or even "and implied that I would be able to obtain steroids and hgh..."

The point is, these affidavits are carefully worded to be as broad and inclusive as possible, while still being truthful testimony.  The fact that information is not included is important.  We should not assume anything that is not in the affidavit (and in some respects, it actually suggests that information not included is not true, or else it would have been included).

by Westy on Jun 9, 2006 11:10 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

What needs to happen...
..is for the Cardinals to get 'ahead' of the story.  Get out there and make a statement.  Put Albert on camera denying anything like this or explaining his relationship with Chris.  Don't go into a bunker about it, because you know the questions are going to come from this deadspin report, even if the regular media hasn't picked it up.

The questions are going to come and that is going to make the story credible for mainstream media.  However, if the Cardinals get out there and put all the information they can out to clear Albert's name, then they can save his reputation.  Otherwise, once this hits the local news around the country, Albert Pujols (the future of baseball) will be nothing but the butt of jokes.

by Hardcore Legend on Jun 9, 2006 11:05 AM EDT   0 recs

we saw what happened the last time Albert got
in front of a story.  The national media saw it as an opening to examine albert and performance enhancing drugs.  As soon as Albert speaks on this, he legitimizes all of our speculation.  His name will get drug through the mud, no question.  The Cardinals organization should keep thier wait-and-see posture.  

-SIGH-  His career numbers have not had the dramatic changes of other performance enhancers.  He has that going for him.  

by Schnake on Jun 9, 2006 11:32 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I disagree...
Until Mihfield and/or Albert are actually accused of something, why should the Cardinals organization or Albert himself say anything? People talk too damn much in this 'confessional' society we've created. Most of this talk is meaningless and serves only as a way of temporarily allowing them to take no responsibility for their own actions. Until there's a real reason to talk, silence can be golden.

by rockin redbird on Jun 9, 2006 11:40 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

so the distinction is that
redacted told Grimsley where he could get some greenies.  Grimsley then used that source (not redacted but the person he referred Grimsley to) to get some HGH.  Am I understanding this?  So redacted may not have known anything about HGH or may not have told Grimsley where to get HGH if that's what he thought he was looking for.  Is this right?

by houstoncardinal on Jun 9, 2006 11:15 AM EDT   0 recs

BTW
Colin Cowherd (sp?) addressed these rumors this morning on his show as well.  It will be in the papers sooner rather than later.

by houstoncardinal on Jun 9, 2006 11:15 AM EDT   0 recs

Colin Cowherd
Is discussing the allegations on ESPN radio.  I think you can listen on Espnradio.com.  He mentioned Deadspin, Mihlfield, etc.  

He has been fairly balanced on how this implicates Pujols.

OC Cards Fan

by OCCardsFan on Jun 9, 2006 11:17 AM EDT   0 recs

Mulder
I thought earlier this week we thought that Mulder was getting skipped for a couple of extra days rest?
OC Cards Fan

by OCCardsFan on Jun 9, 2006 11:24 AM EDT   0 recs

That's what I thought too
I'm not sure whether it was just a mistake or whether someone had actually announced that Marquis was was going to start.  By the way, thanks for bringing up something other than the mass speculation about Pujols, Mihlfield etc.  
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." -- Hunter S. Thompson

by secretweapon on Jun 9, 2006 11:31 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

the site changed
first saturday's starter was listed as "to be announced," with marquis on friday and mulder not even listed at all. then "to be announced" was replaced with mulder, and marquis remained on friday.

as of last night, mulder had resumed his normal spot in the rotation.

all of this suggests a health issue --- they weren't sure he'd be ready to go, then they thought he'd be ready to go with some extra rest, and ultimately he must have responded well enough to his treatment (all legal, pretty please???) to be in shape for his normal turn.

that's how i read it

by lboros on Jun 9, 2006 12:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Good
I'm looking forward to a refreshed staff putting the hurts on the Brew Crew this weekend.  Edmonds and Rolen are going to lead this team to a weekend sweep!
OC Cards Fan

by OCCardsFan on Jun 9, 2006 12:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I still fail to see
how any of this conjecture about Mihfield--even if true--has ANY meaning in the realm of what Albert may or may not have done. I will "blatantly trumpet" Albert's innocence on this until proof otherwise is provided. Why? Not because I'm blind and well-wishing beyond reason, but because I refuse to condemn one person for another person's alleged actions. A true example from my own life--I smoke weed. My best friend of 30 years does not, never has. He knows I do--has seen me imbibe thousands of times over the years. But that's as far as it goes with him. I know many dealers of all sorts of drugs; my friend does not know them. People who don't know him may assume that because we've been like brothers most of our lives that there is no way he doesn't imbibe or know the criminals I know. They are wrong. THAT is the truth, regardless of this sad animal called 'public opinion.' What Mihfield did or didn't do, whom he knows or doesn't know, cannot serve as some kind of "evidence" that Pujols must be guilty because of his association with the man. I'm sure nearly every pro-sports trainer on the planet knows where illegal substances can be had. It's part of their profession. Whether they use that knowledge or not still doesn't automatically incriminate their every client (or employer, however that works). How would you like it if you were fired for stealing because one of your co-workers did? You must have either been in on it or at the very least known what he/she was doing, right? Wrong. That's why we have this "innocent until proven guilty" thing here in America. In relation to Albert, I don't care if Mihfield was dealing smack on the street corner by a church--it doesn't prove anything about Albert.    

by rockin redbird on Jun 9, 2006 11:33 AM EDT   0 recs

Good post
I have to agree with what you are saying, and I am in the same position your friend is in. I am not  a user, but I have friends who are, but what they do doesnt change what I do. However, I know that some people THINK that I do the same things, because we are friends. So even though Pujols may be innocent, he will be beaten up in the court of public opinion. I also agree with the thoughts that if Pujols was found to have used enhancers (other than the readily available greenies), I would not back him blindly. I was as big a Mcgwire fan as there was, but after his congressional testimony, I have no interest in him. With Pujols, there needs to be more proof than this affadavit.

by bigcardsfan5 on Jun 9, 2006 12:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

thanks redbird
You're right.  I'm standing by Pujols.  Again, not out of blind loyalty but b/c he's earned the right to better treatment.  I just think it's unfortunate that, b/c there is no HGH test, he'll never be able to prove himself innocent.  With the steroid test, he was able to shoot down those rumors.  Unfortunately, he can't do that here, having never passed a nonexistant HGH test.

by houstoncardinal on Jun 9, 2006 11:40 AM EDT   0 recs

Idolatry
Under normal